This is the most masterful statement I've seen so far, and it is buzzing around the internet at present. Well worth 10 minutes of your time, even if you have to read the subtitles which are helpfully provided in English, Hebrew, and Arabic. The talk is in German.

Robert Habeck speaks

He is the minister of economics (and climate protection), and he hails from the Green party.

Germany defines free speech differently than we do. Our approach isn't necessarily better. Germany's political transformation over the last eighty years has, in their view, necessitated a somewhat less expansive view of free speech.

maybe i should go live in germany.

truly all the anti-semitic rhetoric and demonstrations are freaking me out.

quote:

Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
This is the most masterful statement I've seen so far, and it is buzzing around the internet at present. Well worth 10 minutes of your time, even if you have to read the subtitles which are helpfully provided in English, Hebrew, and Arabic. The talk is in German.

Robert Habeck speaks

He is the minister of economics (and climate protection), and he hails from the Green party.

Germany defines free speech differently than we do. Our approach isn't necessarily better. Germany's political transformation over the last eighty years has, in their view, necessitated a somewhat less expansive view of free speech.

That was worth watching.

Thanks for posting that P*D.

Certainly was. Clarity.

He used that word, in fact. And clarity doesn't mean ignoring the plight of millions of Palestinian Arabs or demeaning them the way that Israel's current right wing (downright racist) government does.

I'm flummoxed about how to "solve" this problem, and we seem farther from an end to the conflict than we have been since the 1960s. Most of the commentary I'm reading reflects passionate feelings and not genuine thought about how to find a pathway, however long and tortuous, out of the mire.

Asking Israel simply to stop is almost akin to asking a hurricane to go away, or praying that it does (a la Pat Robertson). NO Israeli government would have reacted with anything but extreme violence in the aftermath of Oct. 7th. There is a consensus there now to finish off Hamas, even if Israel (Netanyahu) is partly at fault for Hamas's continued chokehold over "politics" in Gaza.

Hope, if there is any, is about the day after Hamas is gone. I hope that that day leads to the downfall of Netanyahu and his brutal Jewish-supremacist allies. Maybe after totally crushing the murderous spirit of Hamas (please do read its charter) can a new Palestinian leadership arise -- sort of like Germany in 1945 -- that will have the willingness and capacity to make a peace that doesn't include the maximalist demands of Arafat/Abbas.

Those demands were beyond Israeli red lines for a reason. They did not want peace. They wanted to remain in power at the head of the graft and privilege trough.


This was the kind of leader who could have made peace with Israel AND built a viable Palestinian state. But he was way too honest and honorable for the crooks and thugs of the Palestinian "freedom" movement to tolerate. Alas, it's the Palestinians' loss that its leadership defines cupidity and incompetence at much beyond corruption and killing.

As much as I'd like to see all Hamas get their 72 virgins, and that right soon, I fear Israel is just begetting more. Until the Gazans want Hamas and the like out of their society this will just continue.

I'll wait and see, with some hope. Germans supported Hitler until the German state was brutally crushed by force of arms and carpet bombing. A brief view of post-war Berlin reveals that we did a more brutal number on German cities than Israel is likely to do in Gaza, in part because modern weapons are more accurate. Aerial bombing plus Russian tanks/infantry didn't leave much standing in much of Germany. (I guess we were all just war criminals for fighting the Germans this way ...).



Can we shrink this picture?

There was no question that the Nazis brought destruction to Germany. I'm not sure the Gazans will share that clarity, true though it may be. There is such a track record for blaming and hating Israel regardless of the facts.

Jeezus.

I have been reading a lot, thinking a lot. I am trying to figure out what my position is on all of this, considering how complicated and entrenched the situation is.

First, I think our top priority should be preventing an expanded conflagration that involves more of the Middle East and could end up sparking WWIII. I think we are dangerously approaching this, especially now that Russia and China have publicly supported Hamas.

What can prevent this? Would U.N. peacekeeping forces moving in to create and enforce a ceasefire until all the interested parties can hammer out a peace agreement be feasible?

Should Hamas be included as an "interested party?" Because their objective is the obliteration of Israel and the Jews, can they even possibly be allowed at the table? If they aren't, there will be no peace, and if they are, there will be no peace. Therefore perhaps allowing the IDF to take them out, with international support for the operation, is the first and best way forward?

Second, my own personal cause here is the eradication of anti-semitism, for once and for all. What actions can best serve that objective?

Speaking out, first and foremost. 90 years ago, nobody spoke up, and look what happened. Reading about swastikas spray painted on headstones in a Jewish cemeteries in Vienna is a real wake-up call. That was in the news only yesterday.

I think we need to make it absolutely clear to those who are protesting in favor of the Palestinian people that they are (possibly unwittingly) fomenting the anti-semitism that is catching on like wildfire around the world right now.

Criticizing the Israeli government is not anti-semitism. But adopting Hamas' slogan "from the river to the sea" is anti-semitism. Saying "yes, but" to the atrocities of the Hamas pogrom is anti-semitism--it dehumanizes the Israelis who are the victims, makes them less than.

If you or your friends are doing either of these things, please stop. It is possible to support justice and humane treatment for Palestinian civilians AND help put a stop to anti-semitism by speaking out against it and by refusing to support Hamas.

I'm not seeing any kind of a clear pathway out of this disaster. Even if every last Hamas leader and operative were killed, it won't be enough to eradicate anti-Israel sympathies in the Middle East, and appears to be doing exactly the opposite. There is still Iran, there is still Hezbollah, there is still the Islamic Jihad.

Do the Allies who are responsible for the origins of this mess (the U.S., Britain, France) step in and police the area to prevent any more loss of life? How do we enable the Israelis to get rid of Netanyahu and his far right government? How do we protect Palestinian civilians from the evil of their own leadership?

This is the business of the entire world now, because of how explosive the situation is and the potential consequences if it gets any further out of hand.

What are your thoughts?

quote:

What are your thoughts?

I still don’t feel any better able to articulate my thoughts than I did when this all started< but reading this thread, and your comments, is helpful to me.

I agree that is very important for people to be saying — out loud — that we must denounce anti-semitism.

No one, besides people here at WTF, has asked me what I think, but I guess this is where I will start when talking about this. And then maybe the next step is along the lines of what you’re talking about, that it’s possible to criticize what’s happening without being anti-Semitic.

I think most people can’t hold ideas in their heads if they think there’s some contradiction. People don’t do nuance, and nuance doesn’t make for good protest signs.

Speaking of which, did anyone hear Obama’s remarks? Is it worth trying to find the full video or transcript of what he said?

There are plenty of people in all levels of the US government who long for a clear beginning of the "end times"...

Makes the situation that much more scary!

Yeah, one of 'em is not speaker of the House.