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"I've got morons on my team."

Mitt Romney
Minor Deity
Picture of Piano*Dad
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quote:
Originally posted by QuirtEvans:
Reported on Twitter by someone who is a reporter for the NYT and a political analyst for MSNBC:

quote:
A Gaza health ministry spokesman said that head of Al-Shifa Hospital refused to accept fuel because “taking this fuel would give Israel credit for allowing fuel into Gaza.”


So much for caring about Palestinian babies ...

Civilians are just props for the stage on which Hamas's leadership is acting out its political dance of death.
 
Posts: 12759 | Location: Williamsburg, VA | Registered: 19 July 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
"I've got morons on my team."

Mitt Romney
Minor Deity
Picture of Piano*Dad
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Current position map according to the Institute for the Study of War (ISW) ...

Can somebody shrink this? When I change 4096x4096 to something smaller it goes kaflooey.

wtg here....

Resized image:



Original image:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F-...t=jpg&name=4096x4096
 
Posts: 12759 | Location: Williamsburg, VA | Registered: 19 July 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Has Achieved Nirvana
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Posts: 25325 | Registered: 31 March 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Apparently, Netanyahu quoted the Old Testament passage about genocide in public, thereby expressing his intent.

Apparently, other government and military leaders have done the same.
 
Posts: 25325 | Registered: 31 March 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
"I've got morons on my team."

Mitt Romney
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Newest map. Al Shifa hospital complex now behind the lines, with Israeli troops attempted to clear it.

Again, please shrink this down.

(wtg here...)

Resized image:



Original image:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F-...t=jpg&name=4096x4096
 
Posts: 12759 | Location: Williamsburg, VA | Registered: 19 July 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
"I've got morons on my team."

Mitt Romney
Minor Deity
Picture of Piano*Dad
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Yemen's Iran-proxy Houthis keep firing missiles at Israel (and at US ships).

One wonders how long before the Saudis positively invite Israeli aircraft to use precision JDAMs to ... ah, severely degrade the Houthi leadership.
 
Posts: 12759 | Location: Williamsburg, VA | Registered: 19 July 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Has Achieved Nirvana
Picture of QuirtEvans
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quote:
Originally posted by Daniel:
Apparently, Netanyahu quoted the Old Testament passage about genocide in public, thereby expressing his intent.

Apparently, other government and military leaders have done the same.


What was our goal after 9/11?

What happened to Germany in World War II?

If you start a war … particularly, by massacring, raping, and kidnapping civilians … you’d better prepared for consequences. And, if you hide behind civilians … well, the Geneva Conventions are pretty clear about that.
 
Posts: 45838 | Registered: 20 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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All this hand-wringing over what the Israelis are doing, when they are light years ahead morally in the way they conduct operations. The Gazan casualties are the direct result of Hamas manipulation and exploitation. Hamas wants the highest possible body counts.


--------------------------------
"A mob is a place where people go to get away from their conscience" Atticus Finch

 
Posts: 13650 | Registered: 20 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
"I've got morons on my team."

Mitt Romney
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Israel takes over Al Shifa hospital.

Story in the Times of Israel

I will wait for more detail, but I think we can safely glean from this that the hospital is now in Israeli hands, and it should be able to return to doing what hospitals are supposed to do.
 
Posts: 12759 | Location: Williamsburg, VA | Registered: 19 July 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by QuirtEvans:
quote:
Originally posted by Daniel:
Apparently, Netanyahu quoted the Old Testament passage about genocide in public, thereby expressing his intent.

Apparently, other government and military leaders have done the same.


What was our goal after 9/11?

What happened to Germany in World War II?

If you start a war … particularly, by massacring, raping, and kidnapping civilians … you’d better prepared for consequences. And, if you hide behind civilians … well, the Geneva Conventions are pretty clear about that.


Maybe I wasn't clear.

Their words showed intent to violate the Geneva Conventions.
 
Posts: 25325 | Registered: 31 March 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Maybe I wasn't clear.

You are 100% wrong.

If a group starts a war and then tries to hide behind civilians, attacking that group is not a violation of the Geneva Conventions, even if it puts civilians at risk. No matter what Bible verses are quoted.
 
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No.

Sorry.
 
Posts: 25325 | Registered: 31 March 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Daniel:
No.

Sorry.


That is not an analytical response. It’s reflexive.

PD posted the link to this earlier. It’s the analytical framework under the Geneva Coventions. It’s long, but I’ll copy it for anyone who didn’t click through.

quote:
Hi, I’m a lawyer. Do want to know what is really meant by a “#proportionate response” under international law? Then read on - and feel free to ask questions!

Under International Humanitarian Law, #proportionality requires that any degree of damage (up to and including death) to #civilians not be “excessive” in relation to the “military advantage anticipated from a strike against a military target.”

We are going to break that down, so everyone understands what exactly that means.

However, first, you should be aware that it is a misnomer that anytime #Palestinian civilians die after an #Israeli strike, it is automatically evidence of an Israeli war crime. This is completely false - the law does not work that way.

Simply, and unfortunately, the international rules of law recognize that civilians are often killed during war; and, most of the time, those deaths are actually not indicative of a war crime.

Instead, the legal test for “proportionality” requires that each individual strike be looked at with a particular balancing analysis.

First, here is a hard and fast rule: the strike must be intended to target a military objective; it is, therefore, an unlawful war crime to strike with the intent of targeting civilians without any military objective whatsoever.

Now, let’s get a little technical while still keeping it simple.

Under the First Additional Protocol to the Geneva Conventions of 1977 at both Article 51(5)(b) and Article 52(2), we know that when #Hamas uses its own population (or Israeli #hostages) as #humanshields - either by using them to shield themselves or to shield their weapons depots - Hamas has, under international law, turned civilians targets into military targets.

That means that when Hamas places weapons caches in and under schools, hospitals, mosques, etc., Hamas has made each of those places legitimate military targets.

So, it has been well-known for many years that Hamas purposefully placed its headquarters underground beneath the al-Shifa Hospital. In doing so, international law holds that the hospital is no longer just a civilian target, it is a legitimate military target.

That does not necessarily give the IDF carte blanche to attack hospitals, schools, mosques, etc.; however, it does mean that an IDF attack on a civilian target that has been made into a military target by Hamas’ use of human shields is not per se illegal under international law.

Instead, such a strike (as is the case with any strike conducted by a military like the IDF), must be analyzed through a balancing test.

One part of this balancing test performed by Israel before each strike is to determine whether the human shields in question are being used voluntarily or involuntarily.

If the human shields are being used voluntarily - meaning the human shields are there protecting Hamas and its weapons of their own volition - then the target remains a completely legitimate military target.

If the human shields are being used involuntarily - meaning Hamas is forcing people to act as human shields to protect themselves and/or their weapons - then the IDF must go back to the balancing test to determine whether the anticipated military advantage of a successful strike would outweigh the reasonably anticipated loss of civilian life.

Importantly, the IDF rules state that if it cannot determine whether a human shield is being used voluntarily or involuntarily, it must presume the civilian is being used against his or her own will and treat the civilians as an involuntary participant.

Assuming that there is a military target & that there may be human shields that are there involuntarily, the next step in the proportionality analysis for each individual strike (remember, proportionality is determined on a strike-by-strike basis, and not as the accumulation of strikes over time) is to try to determine the likely amount of damage to civilian persons and/or property as a result of the strike.

In other words, under international law, Israel must be able to give a sort of “value” to the anticipated impact on civilians (including potential civilian deaths). Simply, a smaller number of anticipated civilian casualties may make the strike proportionate if there is a significant military advantage to be gained by conducting the strike.

However, if Israel determines that the anticipated impact of a strike may cause many civilian casualties, it must make the difficult determination of whether the anticipated military advantage is so significant that it warrants carrying out the strike anyway.

So, if Hamas has a weapons depot underneath a house with two civilians inside, and that house has been used to fire 500 rockets at Israeli civilians, and it is reasonably expected that there are hundreds more rockets under that house, Israel can almost certainly carry out the strike within the confines of international law.

If that same house, however, had 10 families living inside, including many children, it could - and likely would - tip the scales of the proportionality balancing test toward Israel not being permitted to carry out the strike, even though the house has been used to attack Israeli civilians and can be expected to continue to be used to carry out attacks against Israeli civilians.

Now, that balancing test can always change. If that same house is being used to fire long-range, precision-guided missiles at Israel’s major population centers in places like #TelAviv (effectively putting millions of Israeli civilians in danger), the balancing test may tip back in favor of Israel being legally permitted to carry out the strike.

This all suggests the third and final step in the proportionality balancing test: the #IDF must determine and place a “value” on the anticipated military advantage that would be gained if it were to carry out a particular strike.

An attack on Hamas leadership and/or its weapons manufacturers would be considered a high value target. An attack on a single Hamas member who has no special skill, would be a much lower value military target.

Similarly, an attack on a small cache of mortars would have less military value that an attack on a large cache of advanced rockets that can reach large Israeli civilian population centers.

Once the @IDF determines the anticipated “value” of the likely effect on civilian persons and property and the anticipated “value” of the likely military advantage to be gained if the strike is carried out, the balancing test can be performed, and a certain amount of judgment must go into the determination of whether that strike would or would not be “proportionate.”

Importantly, this decision is so vital that the IDF does not simply permit a single solder on the ground with his or her hand on the proverbial (or actual) “trigger” to make that determination.

In fact, the decision of whether a strike is proportionate is not even left up to IDF officers. It’s not even left up to IDF Generals.

Instead, before any IDF strike can take place, IDF Guidelines provide that the proportionality balancing test must be presented to and analyzed by IDF military lawyers who then determine whether the strike is legally permissible as “proportionate” under international law and the rules of war.

And these IDF military lawyers are not mere patsies or people who simply “rubber stamp” what the IDF requests.

In fact, the IDF’s military lawyers work entirely independently of the IDF. They are outside of the chain of command and do not answer to anyone in the IDF, including a General (for example).

Plus, every IDF military lawyer knows he or she may very well be held to account if he or she makes a wrong decision based on the evidence available at the time.

Furthermore, sometimes the decisions to be made while balancing the likely military advantage against the likely civilian casualties can be so difficult that the legality of the strike is first brought to the Israeli Supreme Court for instant review.

Another important concept: the comparison of civilian body counts of #Israelis versus #Palestinians (to the extent those numbers can be trusted since they come directly from Hamas-only) is not relevant to a proportionality analysis. Each strike must be viewed individually to determine proportionality. It is not a test of the cumulative nature of the strikes.

Also, by simply comparing body counts, it does not factor in how many people killed were actually #HamasTerrorists, how many were Hamas collaborators there voluntarily, and it does not consider what military advantage was gained by Israel carrying out any individual strike.

As Israel is now in the process of seeking to secure the military advantage of preventing Hamas from having the capacity to carry out repeated attacks of the kind and nature seen on October 7th, Israel is permitted to act proportionately insofar as necessary to achieve that military objective (the elimination of Hamas and/or its ability to make war).

One more important fact people do not know, but that they should know: according to UN statistics of global conflict, the average civilian to combatant killed ratio is a rather appalling nine civilians killed for every one combatant killed.

That’s why civilian body counts in and of themselves are never indicative of a war crime. Each individual strike has to be analyzed, and unfortunately civilians always suffer disproportionately in wars.

In fact, while Israel is routinely criticized for any of its strikes that kill civilians, you may be surprised to know that Israel’s civilian to combatant ratio is routinely much lower than the nine to one average.

In the very last operation carried out by the IDF prior to October 7 (in Jenin), 0.6 civilians were killed for every one combatant killed.

In that conflict, not only were the IDF’s ratio numbers nowhere near the nine to one international average, but the IDF actually managed to kill more combatants than civilians - something that is extremely rare.

In truth, Israel is targeted by accusations of war crimes almost immediately by the media, by politicians, and by the UN General Assembly despite the fact that those accusations are near 100% of the time based neither in fact nor in law.

Since a proportionality balancing test must be used to determine whether a single specific Israeli strike falls within the confines of international law, someone providing an analysis must have all of the facts Israel considered before carrying out that strike as to the anticipated impact on civilians and the anticipated military advantage. Obviously, anyone who is making a snap judgment critical of Israel could not possibly have that information.

Understand then, that when you see talking heads accusing Israel of “war crimes” immediately after and/or during Israeli strikes, that is not an actual legal analysis under international law of what constitutes a war crime.

Much more likely, what you are witnessing is part of Hamas’ ongoing psychological and propaganda warfare campaign of demonizing and delegitimizing the State of Israel in the eyes of public opinion.
 
Posts: 45838 | Registered: 20 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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And then there’s this, which was posted on Twitter by the European correspondent for an Israeli podcast:

quote:
47 Minutes.
I don't know how many of you are aware of 'the video';
I can assure you that if you say "47 minutes" to any Israeli today, they'll know exactly what you're referring to.
After 7.10, the IDF collected countless hours of real-time footage of the atrocities taken by Hamas terrorists, victims, and security cameras.
They compiled the footage into a 47-minute video, showing some of the most horrific moments from the attacks. What is shown there only amounts to 10% of those murdered on that day.
The video is being shown to journalists and diplomats worldwide. Some left mid-film due to its hard content, many were crying, and some reported feeling sick or experiencing nightmares.
Members of the Israeli Knesset have seen it, and many were later seen sobbing.
I watched it last week, along with 30 fellow UK journalists. I want to share my experience.

The Banality of Evil.
We arrived at the Israeli embassy for the 'screening',
our phones were taken and we were requested not to detail specific scenes out of respect for the victims and their families.
What struck me most was what Hannah Arendt defined as "The Banality of Evil" when writing about Adolf Eichmann.
Secretary Blinken, after watching the film, talked about one part so I will tell of it as well.
A terrorist threw a grande into a shelter where 2 small boys and their father were hiding. The father jumped on the grenade to save his boys.
When the boys were taken back home by the terrorist, he opened the fridge and demanded a drink. He grabbed a bottle of coke as if it was the most natural thing in the world. As if he didn't just murder a father in front of his sons. As if two small injured children were not just sitting there begging for their lives.
More than the horror footage of dozens of people being killed in the most gruesome ways, what made me dread was the sheer enjoyment the terrorists were showing. They took selfies, they proudly called their parents, and they laughed while shooting defenseless women taking cover.
This is hate and cruelty I've never thought I would witness. Hate and cruelty I didn't know any human could carry.
Israelis always knew that their enemies wished them harm. I doubt anyone, even those who were the most hawkish in their views toward Hamas, thought that such ville monsters were merely a few miles away.

A Denial Campaign
When the screening was over, we didn't quite know what to do. No one really had anything to say so we just sat there for a few moments, until people started to disperse.
I saw some have later written about their experience. I'm sure no one left there exactly the same as they went in.
There's a debate in Israel about whether to make this film public. We're facing an unprecedented campaign denying the atrocities of 7.10 almost in real-time. Despite that, Israel, so far, has been determined not to share the footage with the wider public.
I think it's the right choice.
This film is not meant to be a way of convincing people of how this war is just. The horrific acts of Hamas are known, and many similar videos are already available. Those who wish to deny what happened will use these 47 minutes to support their claim regardless of what's shown, that most were filmed by the terrorists themselves, regardless of those being real people on screen with real families.
This video should be used as evidence, and someday also as an historical reminder.
A reminder of pure evil and of limitless cruelty.
Until then, if you are interested in reading and seeing more about what happened on 7.10, I can recommend these sources of information:
https://oct7map.com
https://hamas-massacre.net
https://october7.org
 
Posts: 45838 | Registered: 20 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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What’s so remarkable is how low the Gazan casualties are, considering.

Even if you take the Hamas numbers at face value.

I don’t feel like googling the most recent number, but at about the 5 week mark Hamas claimed 10k dead.

The IDF had earlier said it dropped 6k bombs in the first week alone. Now I’m sure the bombing rate varies over time, but surely they were at least up to 20k bombs by the 5 week mark. If so that’s a half a human death per bomb. That shows remarkable precision considering Hamas uses human shields as a general practice. And of course Hamas doesn’t report Hamas deaths, just a total number. So that’s half a human death per bomb even though many of those bombs were specifically sent to kill specific individuals.


--------------------------------
If you think looting is bad wait until I tell you about civil forfeiture.

 
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