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| Does This Avatar Make My Butt Look Big? Minor Deity  |
I don't think it's fair to criticize people for not coming here to post. First, there have been many instances where something terrible happened here or abroad that was meaningful or hurtful to me, yet no one here posted anything. I didn't take that as evidence that people didn't care because I think people can think, learn, and process in ways other than posting here. Second, this situation is complex, and I lack the expertise to say anything more compelling than that I don't like to see innocent people dying. I did listen to The Daily this morning to get my head around what is happening, because none of it makes sense to me. I really need to go look at a map. Third, I figured if I said anything I would be attacked for saying the wrong thing or not enough things. I once said on this board that I found discussing Israel challenging because there was one viewpoint and only one viewpoint that could be articulated with there being a big fight to the point of being called anti-Semitic. Cindy -- backing away slowly | |||
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| "I've got morons on my team." Mitt Romney Minor Deity  |
Can we get him to come back and give a first-hand report? | |||
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Has Achieved Nirvana |
I don't recall any past post of yours on the subject, but I don't think your current position is anti-Semitic. I am pro-Israel generally and more specifically in the current atrocities, but I do think there's a "either you're with us or you're against us" mindset that is sometimes at work where Israel is concerned. Not altogether different from Trump's attitude about the world, where, if you criticize him in the least, you must hate Trump. | |||
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| Has Achieved Nirvana |
This reminds me of a scene from a Jimmy Cagney movie. He's a spy who gets captured in occupied France, and the Allied forces bomb the building he's in to prevent him from being tortured. The final scene (of the movie? That he's in?) shows him tied to a chair and laughing just as the bombs begin to hit. | |||
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Has Achieved Nirvana |
Are there any legitimate news organizations reporting on this situation or is everyone rebroadcasting what they read on X? 
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| czarina Has Achieved Nirvana  |
Cindy, I agree I was unfair (as I posted earlier), for all the reasons you stated, and for other reasons. I felt the same about this event that you did about the ones that were meaningful and hurtful to you. I remember one event in particular--when Philando Castile was murdered by the police. I was outraged that no one here posted about it, so I did. I remember your response saying it had mattered to you and also bothered you that it had flown under the radar. This current event is the same for me. It is precisely because of past disussions here about Israel that I felt the silence about this horrific attack was telling. I am upset in general about the Left's tacit anti-semitism that they keep insisting is not anti-semitism. I find it deeply disturbing, even frightening. Today a FB friend posted a map of "Palestine" from 1947 that she assumed meant there had once been a state called Palestine (there wasn't in 1947, but I'm not going to get into that now). To post such a thing in the context of the current atrocities is offensive because it says (to many people) that Israel has no right to defend itself against attack. Thankfully among her FB friends are scholars of the Middle East who know a helluva lot more about this than I do. They swiftly advised her of her mistake. Here is a quote from one of them, a FB friend of hers who majored in Middle Eastern studies at Stanford and who lived in Israel and Jordan to further his studies and knowledge. He expressed something that I have found it very hard to express:
I also am no expert on Middle East affairs, Cindy. I also only have enough expertise to say it is terrible that people are dying. But as a Jew, I am also upset that in the face of these atrocities, people *who should know better* are saying these attacks, bombings, kidnappings are justified. They stop short of saying Israel should be wiped out, but that is what their sympathies lead to. Exactly.
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| "I've got morons on my team." Mitt Romney Minor Deity |
To many in that leftist community, all Israelis are "settlers" in their anti-colonialist mindset, nurtured on Edward Said and Frantz Fanon (even if they have never read anything either of them ever wrote). | |||
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Minor Deity |
A critique of Netanyahu's policy on dealing with the Palestinians: https://www.vox.com/23910085/n...mas-gaza-war-history Among other things, it mentions how Netanyahu's policy of expanding settlements on the West Bank diverted security resources from the Gaza Strip, resulting in weakened security that Hamas can exploit.
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Minor Deity |
One of the reasons there have been fewer posts about the Middle East is that Kathyk has not been here. It was always a big issue for her. J
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| "I've got morons on my team." Mitt Romney Minor Deity |
Any independent commission of inquiry will note this, and many other things as well. Netanyahu is likely toast when this situation finally resolves, even if it resolves with a broken and beaten Hamas. Reoccupying Gaza will likely cost the lives of another 1,000 Israeli soldiers, and thousands of Palestinians who are not fighters. Golda Meir left government in 1974 for a lesser failure. | |||
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Has Achieved Nirvana |
From bach:
eta: https://youtu.be/EnXLxsDTqoI
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| Pinta & the Santa Maria Has Achieved Nirvana  |
I've not found any real commentary about how this outcome was influenced by Kushner's "Peace Talks." Those accords basically were a huge slap in the face to the Gaza Palestinian refugees, and essentially meant that Netanyahu and the Arab countries (most notably Saudi Arabia) had no obligation to even consider Gaza when negotiating anything. To say it was amateurish does a disservice to amateurs. Netanyahu has now made his devil's bargain with the ultra-right in order to maintain power and continue to allow the growth of settlements, access to Al-Aqsa, refusal to acknowledge a two-state solution, etc. Netanyahu is Israel's Trump. A few random comments: 1. The largest cluster of killed Israelis were attending the music festival. I can guarantee that there were no ultra-right Israelis in attendance. This aspect of the attacks I find particularly sad. 2. The ultra-right are exempt from military service. In my mind, this attack lies squarely at the feet of Netanyahu, Kushner/Trump and the ultra-orthodoxy in Israel. Of course things are complicated and I'm not saying that had the recent (post 2020) events not happened this attack wouldn't have come to pass. But it definitely didn't help. | |||
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| Minor Deity |
Quote] In my mind, this attack lies squarely at the feet of Netanyahu, Kushner/Trump and the ultra-orthodoxy in Israel. Of course things are complicated and I'm not saying that had the recent (post 2020) events not happened this attack wouldn't have come to pass. But it definitely didn't help.[/QUOTE] Surely we don’t consider Hamas without blame! By all accounts they went on a killing spree, targeting non-combatants.
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| Pinta & the Santa Maria Has Achieved Nirvana |
Of course not. Hamas is a terrorist organization that have committed unspeakable crimes, over the past week and historically. To me, there's a bit of the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" in any argument that deals with terrorists. Terrorists kill people, randomly and outside of much of our control. But that doesn't mean that we have no responsibility to try to curb terrorist acts. It's not either/or. | |||
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| "I've got morons on my team." Mitt Romney Minor Deity |
A simple google of Kfar Aza will show why many Israelis, even ones who should know better, are using dehumanizing language about Palestinians now. What takes place in Gaza over the next weeks/months will be very brutal. The goals (destroying Hamas) will dictate the means (blowing up anything that is demonstrably Hamas-related). | |||
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