From the Atlantic

quote:

In 1942, answering a pacifist opponent of British involvement in the Second World War, George Orwell replied that “pacifism is objectively pro-fascist.” There have of course been many times in human history when opposition to war has been morally justified, intellectually coherent, and, in the end, vindicated. But the war to defeat fascism during the middle part of the past century was simply not one of them. “This is elementary common sense,” Orwell wrote at the time. “If you hamper the war effort of one side you automatically help that of the other.”


Eight decades later, as a fascistic Russian regime wages war against Ukraine, a motley collection of voices from across the political spectrum has called upon the United States and its allies to adopt neutrality as their position. Ranging from anti-imperialists on the left to isolationists on the right and more respectable “realists” in between, these critics are not pacifists in the strict sense of the term. Few if any oppose the use of force as a matter of principle. But nor are they neutral. It is not sufficient, they say, for the West to cut off its supply of defensive weaponry to Ukraine. It must also atone for “provoking” Russia to attack its smaller, peaceful, democratic neighbor, and work at finding a resolution that satisfies what Moscow calls its “legitimate security interests.” In this, today’s anti-war caucus is objectively pro-fascist.

Nope. Russia has to be stopped in Ukraine. It's a moral and political imperative.

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It is not sufficient, they say, for the West to cut off its supply of defensive weaponry to Ukraine. It must also atone for “provoking” Russia to attack its smaller, peaceful, democratic neighbor, and work at finding a resolution that satisfies what Moscow calls its “legitimate security interests.” In this, today’s anti-war caucus is objectively pro-fascist.

Is anyone listening to that carp?

Yes, lots of people. All over the world.

We have been watching Kens Burns' "The U.S. and the Holocaust." I urge all of you to watch it. Not only is it gripping storytelling, but some of the chills that go through you as you watch are chills of recognition. In the second episode I kept being reminded of Putin and Ukraine. We can't affford to be neutral. The world can't afford it.

The U.S. only joined the war in Europe when Hitler declared war on the U.S. Do we have to wait that long to come to our senses this time? As one of the interviewees said in the film: "The time to stop fascism is before it takes hold."

I second the recommendation regarding The U.S. and the Holocaust.

We are already very deeply involved in the war in Ukraine. The only way we could be more involved is if we sent troops. Or have we already sent "advisors"? I don't know.

I'm not going to support any of our regime change (or in this case regime changed in 2014) wars.

I'm sorry but I'm entitled to my opinion.

I assure you dissent isn't something I enjoy.

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Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
From the Atlantic

quote:

In 1942, answering a pacifist opponent of British involvement in the Second World War, George Orwell replied that “pacifism is objectively pro-fascist.” There have of course been many times in human history when opposition to war has been morally justified, intellectually coherent, and, in the end, vindicated. But the war to defeat fascism during the middle part of the past century was simply not one of them. “This is elementary common sense,” Orwell wrote at the time. “If you hamper the war effort of one side you automatically help that of the other.”


Eight decades later, as a fascistic Russian regime wages war against Ukraine, a motley collection of voices from across the political spectrum has called upon the United States and its allies to adopt neutrality as their position. Ranging from anti-imperialists on the left to isolationists on the right and more respectable “realists” in between, these critics are not pacifists in the strict sense of the term. Few if any oppose the use of force as a matter of principle. But nor are they neutral. It is not sufficient, they say, for the West to cut off its supply of defensive weaponry to Ukraine. It must also atone for “provoking” Russia to attack its smaller, peaceful, democratic neighbor, and work at finding a resolution that satisfies what Moscow calls its “legitimate security interests.” In this, today’s anti-war caucus is objectively pro-fascist.

Neville Chamberlain redux. Appeasement never satisfies a voracious appetite.

quote:

Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
From the Atlantic

quote:

In 1942, answering a pacifist opponent of British involvement in the Second World War, George Orwell replied that “pacifism is objectively pro-fascist.” There have of course been many times in human history when opposition to war has been morally justified, intellectually coherent, and, in the end, vindicated. But the war to defeat fascism during the middle part of the past century was simply not one of them. “This is elementary common sense,” Orwell wrote at the time. “If you hamper the war effort of one side you automatically help that of the other.”


Eight decades later, as a fascistic Russian regime wages war against Ukraine, a motley collection of voices from across the political spectrum has called upon the United States and its allies to adopt neutrality as their position. Ranging from anti-imperialists on the left to isolationists on the right and more respectable “realists” in between, these critics are not pacifists in the strict sense of the term. Few if any oppose the use of force as a matter of principle. But nor are they neutral. It is not sufficient, they say, for the West to cut off its supply of defensive weaponry to Ukraine. It must also atone for “provoking” Russia to attack its smaller, peaceful, democratic neighbor, and work at finding a resolution that satisfies what Moscow calls its “legitimate security interests.” In this, today’s anti-war caucus is objectively pro-fascist.

Ukraine has plenty of overt fascists wearing official uniforms. Is anyone else aware of this fact?

This conclusion is ironic and just seem like name calling to me.

I don't believe that the analogy of Hitler to Putin is apt.

Also, Ukraine has a puppet government. It is not "democratic" by definition.

Finally, this article fails to consider the serious ethnic conflict in Ukraine. It is not a cohesive state nor "peaceful."

This is just one more war out of many the US and UK are waging on foreign soil in my opinion.

I object to it and to the fact that a seemingly endless amount of money is being spent on it while the "general welfare" of our own citizens is by and large being ignored by our government.

"On March 3, 2022, RT America ceased operations following the widespread deplatforming of Russian-sponsored media caused by the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine.[3] The run of On Contact ended. In a March 7, 2022 Scheerpost column (reprinted by Salon), Hedges contrasted the reprimand he received from The New York Times for his Iraq War opposition to RT America, who made no comment on Hedges' condemnation of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Hedges said he "might have paid with" his job for making negative comments about the war in Ukraine, "but at least for those six days", after the invasion, he remained in post.[63]"

Chris Hedges is against the Russian invasion of Ukraine (something you'll hear him say if you watch the video I posted).

My own view is similar. But I also agree with the points he makes about American involvement.

I'm a conscientious objector, a moral framework I chose during the Vietnam War, even though it ended when I was 6 or 7, as usual as this might sound.

I guess my point is that I believe neither protagonist in the personages of the respective leaders is righteous.

This is in addition to my objection to the history and present day involvement of our government.

But in general, blaming others for our own failures is not a winning strategy.The Democrats in power have variously blamed Trump and Putin for everything under the sun.

The Democrats have done a lot to transfer wealth upward. They seem incompetent when it comes to doing anything else. I'm finding it impossible to support the DNC or even to identify with it.

On a tangential note, I think the Democrats can kiss the House goodbye.

Anyway, please accept the fact these are my beliefs and views as I accept the fact that many others here have different beliefs and views about the Ukraine war.

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I believe neither protagonist in the personages of the respective leaders is righteous.

On what basis are you saying this?

As for Chris Hedges, he is an ideological activist, not a reporter. He flunked as a reporter a long time ago.

For you to say that Zelensky is in any manner equivalent to Putin pretty much inclines me to disregard and disqualify anything you have to say on the topic.

It’s true that we have had our hands in Eastern Europe for a long time. Russia is right to be concerned, but with their meddling in our internal politics, they have little right to complain. None of that, however, justifies invading or the criminal brutality they have inflicted on Ukraine.

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For you to say that Zelensky is in any manner equivalent to Putin pretty much inclines me to disregard and disqualify anything you have to say on the topic.

Did that long ago ...

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Originally posted by piqué:

quote:

I believe neither protagonist in the personages of the respective leaders is righteous.

On what basis are you saying this?

As for Chris Hedges, he is an ideological activist, not a reporter. He flunked as a reporter a long time ago.

For you to say that Zelensky is in any manner equivalent to Putin pretty much inclines me to disregard and disqualify anything you have to say on the topic.

Chris Hedges has had an illustrious career as a reporter. Informal logical fallacy-- argument against the person. I'd rather finish this post than Google the Latin.

Zelensky was installed by the US in a coup in 2014. With all due respect, it's a fact that he's not a democratic leader. I'd advise you to research before accusing me of being incorrect about this.

Zelensky has been and is committing war crimes against the ethnic Russian population.