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They see those who are breaking windows (etc.) as criminals.

That behavior is criminal.

People are conflating the protestors and the looters. In rare cases, an individual may be both, but somehow I doubt it.

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Originally posted by ShiroKuro:

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But it has to be a referendum on Trump. If it’s a referendum on the demonstrators we’re ******.

So how does that happen?

A few tens of thousands of people in 3 states start to view it as the biggest concern.

Like 1968.

Not to extrapolate too much from my own experience, but I don’t know any repentant Trump voters. I know a couple Republicans that didn’t vote for him in 16 but might in 2020.

I just wish the Libertarians had put someone credible up again.

Look, Biden doesn't have to win by 10% to create a landslide. 5% will do. If things end up 51% to 46%, with voters like my youngest voting Green and Mik voting Libertarian, that would be enough to generate a major landslide in the Electoral College. At a 5% margin, no Clinton state will slide to Trump, and many (if not most) of the Trump razor-edge places will slide to Biden. Biden's margin (maybe in PA, WI, FL) might not be much, but it'll likely be enough, in enough places.

This rosy scenario all depends on not having terrible October surprises ... Kamala Harris is discovered to have murdered her mother-in-law's aunt. There are no October surprises that could hurt Trump very much at this point. If we found out that he had romped with a Russian hooker in Moscow, on Putin's tab during one of Trump's visits, that would probably just cement his positive image to many of our GOP friends (who would just complement his virility).

There's one bit of hopeful news: Steve King lost his primary. Not by a huge margin, but he lost.

On the other hand, his opponents didn't tar and feather him with his own racism...

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"White nationalist, white supremacist, Western civilization — how did that language become offensive?"

His opponents said King was on the outs with Dear Leader and that Feenstra is an I-1 sycophant. During the whole campaign, nobody said "vote King out because he's a racist". Perhaps that's because his opponents are also racist and many of those voting are, too. I'm just speculating.

quote:

Originally posted by wtg:

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They see those who are breaking windows (etc.) as criminals.

That behavior is criminal.

People are conflating the protestors and the looters. In rare cases, an individual may be both, but somehow I doubt it.

Yes, you're right of course, that behavior is criminal. But it's in the context of a much larger problem, and by focusing only on the criminality, the larger problem gets ignored.

Also, if you see the behavior as *only* criminal, you have no sympathy for the perpetrator.

If you see the perpetrator as a citizen in pain, then your view of them looks different.

I want the rioting to stop, I want the destruction of property to stop -- esp. small business owners, an affordable apt. building, small eateries and grocery stores in urban neighborhoods, the destruction of this kind of property is particularly painful.

I also want the violence directed at people during these riots to stop, regardless of who the victims are. In the photos and videos coming from the protests, I've seen some horrifying images of people hurting other people, I'm talking about "ordinary citizens" not exchanges involving law enforcement. These are images I can never unsee and they rise behind my eyelids at night as I try to sleep. This, of course, is the experience people of color have been having for far too long.

But military force is not the answer. Tear gas and pepper spray are not the answer. Rubber bullets are not the answer. Turning those tools on reporters is not the answer.

This is what I posted on FB this morning, it seems relevant here:

If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

If you’re dressed in riot gear, everything looks like a riot.

If you send out the military, everyone they meet looks like an enemy.

Well, that's why I was kinda hoping King would win his primary ... and give his Republican voters a hard choice. For people with any empathy it wouldn't be a hard choice but ...

I don't think anything that has happened in the last week has changed a single mind. If you are an I-1 fan, he can do no wrong, and if he called in the army and told them to mow down all the protesters with machine guns, they'd be just fine with that. And if you thought all along that I-1 is an incompetent, dangerous psychopath, nothing will change that, either.

The thing I simply do not understand is how anyone can be "undecided" at this point.


There is nothing I-1 will not do to try to maintain his stranglehold on power. Nothing.

quote:

Originally posted by ShiroKuro:
Yes, you're right of course, that behavior is criminal. But it's in the context of a much larger problem, and by focusing only on the criminality, the larger problem gets ignored.

Also, if you see the behavior as *only* criminal, you have no sympathy for the perpetrator.

If you see the perpetrator as a citizen in pain, then your view of them looks different.

.

Somehow I still don't think I'm getting your point. Edit: And I'm not confident you understand mine.

Do you think people who are protesting are going rogue and looting?

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Somehow I still don't think I'm getting your point. Edit: And I'm not confident you understand mine.

I believe you are correct on both accounts!

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Do you think people who are protesting are going rogue and looting?

I do not think about it in these terms. It is incredibly difficult to tell what is going on, and I'm not comfortable with putting labels on anybody.

What I am concerned about is how law enforcement behaves, and what our expectations are as a country for how we get beyond this.

I am not sure what the right answer is, but I know what the wrong answers are, and a militarized response is the wrong answer.

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Originally posted by ShiroKuro:

I do not think about it in these terms. It is incredibly difficult to tell what is going on, and I'm not comfortable with putting labels on anybody.

I typically think of a "label" as being an opinion.

When I say "protestor" or "looter" I am describing behavior that is observable.

Protestors should be allowed to protest as the laws allow.

Looters need to be stopped from breaking the law.

In practice, doing both of these things gets pretty damn complicated.

And therein lies the heart of the problem.

What I know is that as of today at least 12 people, possibly 15, have died as a direct result of these protests. some citizens, some law enforcement.

All to protest an incident that the country has been unanimous in condemning.

WTG, I think we're still missing each other...

Mik,

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All to protest an incident that the country has been unanimous in condemning.

If you think that's all the ongoing protests are about, you have not been paying attention.

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Originally posted by Mikhailoh:
What I know is that as of today at least 12 people, possibly 15, have died as a direct result of these protests. some citizens, some law enforcement.

All to protest an incident that the country has been unanimous in condemning.

I think the incident was the precipitating event for the protests.

The underlying (unsolved) problem has been around for much longer. That's what at least some people are protesting.