Some buzz from press on Twitter that it is being discussed.
Tonight would be a great time to do it...everyone is in the Capital, Trump is silenced on social media. Pence and McConnell have certainly changed their tunes today.
Might they try to get it done by morning?
A girl can dream.
-------------------------------- "Wealth is like manure; spread it around and it makes everything grow; pile it up, and it stinks." MillCityGrows.org
Posts: 11215 | Location: Massachusetts | Registered: 22 April 2005
To be honest, I don’t think I want to go that far. I still believe there are enough sane people in Congress, in the courts, and in the armed forces, to prevent Trump from actually creating a bigger riot or bigger insurrection without having to formally remove Trump from office between now and Biden getting sworn in.
Originally posted by Cindysphinx: You need 2/3 of house and senate.
That's not how I read it. I think you just need a simple majority of Congress (not even each house).
quote:
25th Amendment
Section 4
Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.
I think the Congress can name itself as "such other body" and proceed.
An impeachment conviction requires 2/3 of the Senate.
If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.[3]
Also, if one is impeached and convicted, the Senate can also impose the penalty that the subject is prohibited from holding any elected office. In my opinion, that needs to be done in this case.
One news pundit mentioned this. The idea is that Pence would take over immediately, and they could just let the clock run out. The new admin would be in place before the 21 days.
quote:
Originally posted by wtg: I think Cindy is right.
quote:
If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.[3]
Reports are that members of the Cabinet are discussing the 25th. Also that Trump is isolated (not taking calls or talking to people). And angry.
That's a very dangerous combination.
edit: And other members of the administration are weighing whether to stay or resign. Apparently they are getting calls from the outside asking them to stay so that it doesn't create a (more) dangerous void.
-------------------------------- When the world wearies and society ceases to satisfy, there is always the garden - Minnie Aumônier
Posts: 38221 | Location: Somewhere in the middle | Registered: 19 January 2010
You know, BL, that's a brilliant solution. Takes the country out of the hands of a madman, allows the Biden team to do as much transition as they can in the next two weeks. And it's lawful.
Win-win-win.
-------------------------------- When the world wearies and society ceases to satisfy, there is always the garden - Minnie Aumônier
Posts: 38221 | Location: Somewhere in the middle | Registered: 19 January 2010
Originally posted by pianojuggler: Well, she is a lawyer and I'm not.
Also, if one is impeached and convicted, the Senate can also impose the penalty that the subject is prohibited from holding any elected office. In my opinion, that needs to be done in this case.
Nah. I just googled. I have no expertise.
I think that the 2/3 comes into play if the president disputes it.
So if the president is in a coma, Pence + majority of cabinet works.
If the president objects, you need Pence + majority of cabinet, plus 2/3 of both houses.
I think Congress need not wait 21 days. They just cannot sit on it past 21 days.
Trump hasn't tweeted all day. There is clearly something happening . . .
Posts: 19833 | Location: A cluttered house in Metro D.C. | Registered: 20 April 2005
Not that wiki is the definitive authority, but here;s what they have about the relevant section of the 25th.
quote:
Section 4.
Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.
Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.[3]
quote:
Section 4: Declaration by vice president and principal officers
Section 4 addresses the case of an incapacitated president who is unable or unwilling to execute the voluntary declaration contemplated in Section 3; it is the amendment's only section that has never been invoked yet. It allows the vice president, together with a "majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide", to declare the president "unable to discharge the powers and duties" of their office in a written declaration. The transfer of authority to the vice president is immediate, and (as with Section 3) the vice president becomes acting president – not president – while the president remains in office, albeit divested of all authority.[22]
The "principal officers of the executive departments" are the fifteen Cabinet members enumerated in the United States Code at 5 U.S.C 101 (Current officeholders in brackets):[23][24][25]
Secretary of State (Mike Pompeo) Secretary of the Treasury (Steve Mnuchin) Secretary of Defense (Christopher C. Miller) Attorney General (Jeff Rosen) Secretary of the Interior (David Bernhardt) Secretary of Agriculture (Sonny Perdue) Secretary of Commerce (Wilbur Ross) Secretary of Labor (Eugene Scalia) Secretary of Health and Human Services (Alex Azar) Secretary of Housing and Urban Development (Ben Carson) Secretary of Transportation (Elaine Chao) Secretary of Energy (Dan Brouillette) Secretary of Education (Betsy DeVos) Secretary of Veterans Affairs (Robert Wilkie) Secretary of Homeland Security (Vacant)
A president thus declared unable to serve may subsequently issue a declaration stating that they are able. This marks the beginning of a four-day period during which the vice president remains acting president.[26][27]:38n137 If by the end of this period the vice president and a majority of the "principal officers of the executive departments" have not issued a second declaration of the president's incapacity, then the president resumes his powers and duties.
If a second declaration of incapacity is issued within the four-day period, then the vice president remains acting president while Congress considers the matter. If within 21 days the Senate and the House determine, each by a two-thirds vote, that the president is incapacitated, then the vice president continues as acting president; otherwise the president resumes his powers and duties.[note 1]
Section 4's requirements for the vice president to remain acting president indefinitely – a declaration by the vice president together with a majority of the principal officers or other body, then (if the president makes a counter-declaration) a two-thirds vote of the House and a two-thirds vote of the Senate – contrasts with the Constitution's procedure for removal of the president from office for "high crimes and misdemeanors" – a majority of the House (Article I, Section 2, Clause 5) followed by two-thirds of the Senate (Article I, Section 3, Clause 6).[29][30]
Nevertheless, Section 4 still fails to provide an alternate means of anyone other than the vice president (such as the cabinet) invoking the Twenty-fifth Amendment in instances when the office of the vice president is temporarily vacant (i.e., either upon the death or resignation of the vice president, or upon the succession of a vice president to the presidency due to the death or resignation of a president, but before a successor vice president has taken office). The effect of this is that when there is no sitting vice president, Section 4 cannot be used to invoke the Twenty-fifth Amendment until such time as a new vice president takes office.
We'd probably get stuck at the President's response; the president's attorney Rudy is unlikely to send it to the right people and it would die on those grounds....
-------------------------------- When the world wearies and society ceases to satisfy, there is always the garden - Minnie Aumônier
Posts: 38221 | Location: Somewhere in the middle | Registered: 19 January 2010
