quote:

Originally posted by AdagioM:
I don’t doubt that Keon did not *intend* to be hurtful towards Asians. But the *impact* of his remarks were hurtful and othering. And that matters. Intent vs impact, and why your intentions don’t really matter.

He may not see himself as a racist, but the outcome? Racist.

I feel as if I should respond to this.

Of course intent matters. Is intent determinative? Maybe not. But we treat unintentional homicide (manslaughter) differently than we treat intentional murder. There are plenty of crimes where intent is an element of the crime.

In the end, maybe it’s just different circles of hell, but it is different circles of hell.

And I think it’s possible for someone to engage in unintentional racist behavior without being a racist … if they are horrified when they realize what they’ve done, if they are truly remorseful, and if they sincerely resolve to do better in the future. I have no idea whether any of that is true of this guy, but neither does anyone else here. We are all speculating about that.

quote:

Originally posted by Mikhailoh:
Well, I guess Biden has to go too.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...40e5ba9ac404852af91e

I’m fine with that, and wish you the best of luck with President Harris.

quote:

Originally posted by QuirtEvans:

quote:

Originally posted by Mikhailoh:
Well, I guess Biden has to go too.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...40e5ba9ac404852af91e

I’m fine with that, and wish you the best of luck with President Harris.

Nothing really to add here. I admire your fire, SK, and I can feel your hurt on behalf of your husband as I read your words. I can easily relate. It is unfair, hurtful, and wrong to mock people just for being who they are. It's a form of humor I have never enjoyed.

I also wonder how old the guy is. The world has changed since we were young.

quote:

Originally posted by QuirtEvans:
(snip)

I feel as if I should respond to this.

Of course intent matters. Is intent determinative? Maybe not. But we treat unintentional homicide (manslaughter) differently than we treat intentional murder. There are plenty of crimes where intent is an element of the crime.

In the end, maybe it’s just different circles of hell, but it is different circles of hell.

And I think it’s possible for someone to engage in unintentional racist behavior without being a racist … if they are horrified when they realize what they’ve done, if they are truly remorseful, and if they sincerely resolve to do better in the future. I have no idea whether any of that is true of this guy, but neither does anyone else here. We are all speculating about that.

In terms of intent, I think we're seeing examples of that in the opinions already stated. Some folks feel like this was unintentional and should be acknowledged and then dropped. Others see it as unintentional, but stupid, and he should lose his current position. Still others think he should be fired. So yes, intent matters but it's not black and white. In terms of public opinion and actual consequence for something like this, there is a range of ways that intent can factor into the equation. I don't think that simply saying "he didn't mean to" is a get out of jail free card, any more than a conviction for unintentional homicide means there will be no consequences.

Yes, to that last paragraph, except I'm tired of the "oh I'm sorry I'll try to do better" rhetoric without any evidence of sincerely, actually, trying to do better. Like becoming educated on the issues of privilege, microagression, etc., having meetings with (in this case) Asian students and their parents not simply to apologize but to actually listen to what they have to say in an attempt to understand how hurtful his actions were. Maybe he'll do that - I sincerely hope so.

I'm just tired of the hollow apologies, that are often written or reviewed by a professional crisis manager, sent out to social media, and forgotten. Let's hope that's not the case with this guy (or many others, we're just talking about him now).

At least it wasn't my personal example of a non-apology, "I'm sorry if what I said offended you...."

I haven’t been around, so I missed this.

In my view, this is quite serious for several reasons.

He meant to say exactly what he said, and the words have only one purpose and meaning (mocking the accent of a group).

He said it in public, while in his official capacity (as opposed to speaking privately or being unknowingly recorded).

Everyone holding an important position knows or should know that you cannot mock or stereotype others. Imagine if I spoke at a community meeting with Latino advocates and community members and busted out my best Cheech and Chong impression. I would surely be demoted, if not fired.

If you do make a mistake, you need to recognize it and apologize in the moment. If you wait until the PR rep tells you to, it doesn’t mean as much.

We have to stop being reluctant to take action against people who say or do the wrong thing in the workplace. How many years did we ignore sexual assault or harassment because we “didn’t want to destroy his career.” If you do something that jeopardizes your own career, that’s on you.

Regarding whether he intended to hurt others or meant to offend, this doesn’t insulate him from taking the consequences. The only people who mean to hurt others with their racist words are those who are openly and unapologeticly racist. Surely that doesn’t mean the rest of us can’t be held accountable.

Trustees "reprimand" Keon

Faculty wants his scalp.

Trustees are his boss.

The absolutist, unforgiving attitude on the progressive side is one reason why we lose persuadable voters in the middle. They look at those on the left as just as crazy and extreme as those on the right.

This is an ongoing struggle among Democrats. Appeal to the more moderate elements, and lose the enthusiasm of progressives. Appeal to the progressives, and lose elections to Glenn Youngkin and Joe Lombardo.

This goes straight back to Benjamin Franklin ... we must all hang together or we will all hang separately. Unless we find a way to pull progressives and moderates together, we will lose elections to MAGAs in moderate clothing. We got lucky this year, in that there were a whole bunch of crazies nominated ... Mastroiano, Lake, Herschel Walker, etc. But look at what happened in the Nevada governor's race when the Republicans nominated someone who wasn't overt about being a nutjob. Look what happened in the Georgia governor's race when we nominated a good progressive candidate, a really good candidate who by all rights should be in a position of power somewhere, against a sitting Republican governor who didn't have a record of trying to reverse the 2020 Presidential election hanging around his neck like a millstone. Look at the fact that frickin' Ron Johnson, who is completely irrational, was able to get re-elected in Wisconsin.

This isn't coincidence, and it isn't unrelated. Progressives don't tolerate differences of views or mistakes, and independents don't like that.

Interesting points, Quirt.

I find it so very weird that I can strongly agree with most of the progressive agenda, and yet not be one, because I'm not an absolutist and understand that there are other voices in the room that are also legitimate. And because I understand that good politics involves compromise.

There was a great New Yorker article some years ago where the reporter lived in with the Montana Militia--right wing crazies. At some point in the story, he was able to draw a line directly from the far right to the far left--and concluded it was a circle. Follow the far right far enough, and you run smack into a far left radical.

I experienced this a lot locally with Covid. We have anti-vaxxers on both the right and the left here. The progressive ones just left me shaking my head. They even said the same things: "I did my research!"

Conspiracy theorists about regardless of left or right.

So what we really have is an extremism problem. It's rampant among the religious right, and it's rampant on the left. It's rampant among the conservatives.

What is the underlying cause of so much extremism in the public square these days?

My hypothesis: people feel at risk, they feel insecure, they feel scared, and they need the certainty of dogma in order to push those uncomfortable feelings away.

After reading pique's two responses above, I was left wondering what the definition of extremism is. I don't think there's any debate that there are extremists on both sides of the spectrum, but is it like pornography, "I know it when I see it"?

I'm curious what others' definitions of extremism are. I'll go first.

To me, there is a distinction between extreme views and extremism. One can hold extreme views, but it seems that it turns the corner into extremism when the expectation is that your view is the only valid one, the only correct one, and everyone else is wrong. But not only wrong, they must be punished or their views must be legislated away. For me a classic example of this is the abortion debate. I'm OK with people holding very strong views either pro-life or pro-choice. If you are staunchly pro-life, great. Don't get an abortion. But when you make it illegal for anyone else to get an abortion, that's extremism.

My 2c.

And I also recognize we're still in the domain of the question I asked before re: the chancellor. Is there a difference between a racist action and racism? Is there a difference between an extreme action and extremism?

quote:

Is there a difference between a racist action and racism? Is there a difference between an extreme action and extremism?

I think it's impossible to answer those questions. It revolves around intention. We can't know another person's intentions by observing from the outside.

Even if someone doesn't demonstrate a prior pattern of racism or extremism, that doesn't mean they don't unconsciously hold those attitudes.

Also, racism and extremism are defined differently by different people. Whose definition prevails?

I'll give an example from my own life:

Is this a racist action?

A gang of black teenagers is walking towards you as you are headed in their direction on a busy sidewalk. You jaywalk to get to the other side of the street.

Let's say, for the sake of discussion, that that is clearly a racist act.

But is it "racism"--which--for the sake of our discussion--we'll define as thinking of black teenagers as "other"?

You could argue it has to be both racist and racism. Would the jaywalker have crossed the street if they were white teenagers? No? Racist. Does the jaywalker think all black teenagers must be dangers? Yes? Racism.

But it is entirely possible that the jaywalker would have crossed the street if they were white teenagers. Maybe he is afraid of all teenagers. Maybe he is afraid of all gangs. Maybe it isn't a racist act but an ageist act, or a sexist act, or both. Or maybe it is just common sense that gangs in that neighborhood are notoriously dangerous and bad things happen when you are surrounded by them.

As for whether it is racism:

How do we know if the jaywalker thinks of blacks as a group, teenagers as a group, boys as a group, instead of seeing them as human beings?

I don't think we can know unless they inform us.

And of course, once they have taken the objectionable action, many will not believe what their stated intention is.

The chancellor doesn't think he is a racist, no doubt. I personally think that using a racist trope is always a racist act. Does that mean in his heart he thinks of Asians as "other" ?

We'll never know for sure, unless he continues to do such acts, and thereby reveal his thinking, however unconscious.

Another thought:


It is possible to think of Jews as other, blacks as other, Asians as other, and yet be kind, inclusive and welcoming to all Jews, blacks, and Asians.

Is that racism?

I personally feel that thinking of people as "other" based on traits they were born with is always bigotry. Being nice to those people while you think of them as "other" doesn't make you less of a bigot.

And yes, I personally have such prejudices, and despite there being certain groups that I see as "other"--primarily because I have little to no experience with them--I personally make an effort to see all people that I do meet as individuals, and treat them with the respect they deserve because they are human beings, and so, fundamentally, no different from me.

I've never found this to be difficult. But my good actions don't change the fact that I think of some categories of people as "other."

There is an antidote--immersing yourself in that culture or community until there is no otherness any more.

quote:

And I also recognize we're still in the domain of the question I asked before re: the chancellor. Is there a difference between a racist action and racism? Is there a difference between an extreme action and extremism?

Without in any way excusing what he did, I think there is. And that’s where intent factors in.

Unlike the teenage gang example, I don’t think it’s arguable as to whether this was racist and inappropriate. He was just wrong, full stop.

But we know nothing about the man and the rest of his life. We don’t know whether he’s done 100 wonderful things or 100 terrible ones. We are looking at him through a pinhole.

What I’m saying is this: to win elections, we need allies, and those allies won’t be 100% right 100% of the time. Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema are often problematic, but, without them, we don’t hold the Senate and we don’t get judges confirmed.

Maybe this guy deserves to be fired. But there’s an element of the progressive wing that is far too reflexive about treating anyone who has the slightest variance of opinion as the enemy. That may make them feel better but it’s counterproductive. The next person may be just as bad, or worse, but may be more careful after watching his experience. They might just be a closet racist.

So maybe we should take a beat and figure out what’s in this guy’s heart and his mind before we send him to the guillotine.

If you want to analogize this situation to criminal law, there’s always the “model citizen” defense that is argued as a mitigating factor in sentencing. Sometimes it gets weighed into the balance, sometimes not.

One thing I have tried to remember in my life interactions is the assumption of good intent. Pretty much everybody deserves that. Certainly, this guy does. He made a clumsy joke related to someone who spoke before him. I don't believe there was any intention to give racist dog whistles or to offend anyone.

When people like this lose their careers over a momentary gaffe the cure is far worse than the disease.