quote:

Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
Nope. Both parties in a job interview do not have something the other wants.

The interviewer does not want any interviwee to whom an offer is not extended.

Still yould love to hear about those times intervieerrd wrote you afterwards just to thank you for your time. If it ever happened
. .

Still would love if you improved your reading comprehension.

quote:

Originally posted by Nina:
Hmmm, I wrote a response but it got eaten.

You want a job.

.

Maybe this is another difference in how we see things. There’s only two occasions in my career that I’ve interviewed from a position of being unemployed. The more recent time was far enough along in my career that I have ability to ride out a year or two if I needed to, and I didn’t feel like I NEEDED a job immediately. So I was able to still take the mindset that people need to compete for me. So the interview conversation was always from the standpoint of maybe I want a job and maybe I don’t.


Companies Have in-house recruiters, use outsourced recruiters, have employee referral programs because they need good people. I like to think I am a good people so they should need me.

If you were unemployed and really need a quick paycheck, it clearly is a one-sided negotiation.

quote:

Originally posted by Nina:
Hmmm, I wrote a response but it got eaten.

First, unless you are a walk-on-water candidate, you are competing for a job with others. Sure, you might choose to withdraw based on all sorts of reasons, but the bottom line is that the interviewer has something that you want. They want an employee. You want a job. But what they don't necessarily want is *you* (unless you are a walk-on-water candidate). This doesn't mean you have to be subservient, or that you shouldn't test whether the job or environment meshes with what you want. But as long as you want the job, you are competing with others.

Maybe some of you are walk-on-water candidates. I wouldn't be surprised. But that doesn't mean that your approach works for those who aren't, and certainly not for those who are looking for their first or second jobs.

It isn't about being a walk-on-water candidate. When I've interviewed, I've often interviewed for more than one position at a time. So I may have had more than one offer at once, or I may have expected that I would be able to choose among multiple offers. And then there was the competition from my then-current employer. I've been enticed to stay, more than once, with promises of a new job, or with substantially better pay.

A family member is currently interviewing for jobs, and has already had multiple competing offers. So I don't imagine that my situation is unique.

I guess where I'm getting stuck is this. What I'm hearing is "why should I write a thank-you note? They should be thanking meeee for even considering working for them." This sounds petulant and bratty. I'm pretty sure that you're not petulant and bratty (can't vouch for Doug, though ), so I'm kind of stuck trying to figure out why the notion of a thank you email has struck such a negative chord. Because to me it's a relatively painless thing to do, it greases the social skids, it's nice, it's good manners. It has nothing to do with whether you have multiple job offers. It strikes me as common courtesy. If you've already decided you don't want the job then sure, don't write a thank you email. But if you're undecided or you do want the position, write the freaking email.

Maybe it is a gender thing. If so, you dudes need to get off your butts and be nice.

quote:

Originally posted by Nina:
Hmmm, I wrote a response but it got eaten.

First, unless you are a walk-on-water candidate, you are competing for a job with others. Sure, you might choose to withdraw based on all sorts of reasons, but the bottom line is that the interviewer has something that you want. They want an employee. You want a job. But what they don't necessarily want is *you* (unless you are a walk-on-water candidate). This doesn't mean you have to be subservient, or that you shouldn't test whether the job or environment meshes with what you want. But as long as you want the job, you are competing with others.

Maybe some of you are walk-on-water candidates. I wouldn't be surprised. But that doesn't mean that your approach works for those who aren't, and certainly not for those who are looking for their first or second jobs.

This is correct, obviously. The interviewer has something you wanted enough to apply for and prepare for and dress up for and go across town for.

You know how we can be sure the balance of power doesn’t tip in the interviewees favor?

Because interviewees do not feel free to ask the questions they would like to ask that would help them evaluate the job.

Show of hands: how many of you have walked into any job interview and asked about vacation days, whether you would have to work hard, whether you’d be able to leave early on Tuesdays for your soccer league, whether the bosses are jerks or stupid, whether the company is financially sound, whether you can avoid travel . . . .

Nobody? Didn’t think so. No, we all wait until we have the offer before we do a lot of our vetting, and that is because until that offer is made, we need the job more than the job needs us.

Does the interviewer feel free to ask anything not prohibited by law? Yup. In my experience, they don’t hold back on what they ask about out of some fear of losing me.

So let’s stop playing games about whether we are so above it all that the employer should be grateful for the opportunity to be in our presence.

And for those of you who do have interviewers groveling before you, so grateful you have lowered yourself to interview for their job?

You are overqualified for the positions you have been seeking and should aim a bit higher.

quote:

Originally posted by Nina:
I guess where I'm getting stuck is this. What I'm hearing is "why should I write a thank-you note? They should be thanking meeee for even considering working for them." This sounds petulant and bratty. I'm pretty sure that you're not petulant and bratty (can't vouch for Doug, though ), so I'm kind of stuck trying to figure out why the notion of a thank you email has struck such a negative chord. Because to me it's a relatively painless thing to do, it greases the social skids, it's nice, it's good manners. It has nothing to do with whether you have multiple job offers. It strikes me as common courtesy. If you've already decided you don't want the job then sure, don't write a thank you email. But if you're undecided or you do want the position, write the freaking email.

Maybe it is a gender thing. If so, you dudes need to get off your butts and be nice.

Don’t necessarily disagree with any of this. I was just offering up an example of some employers, me for example, not necessarily viewing a thank you note as a good thing from a candidate. I am suggesting that for some jobs, the right mindset for the interview is a discussion between equals about whether it is a mutual fit. As a candidate, I would certainly thank the interviewer for their time, as an interviewer I would certainly thank the candidate for coming in. We can handle that during the interview.

For subsequent communications, I would be more impressed by serious follow-ups on specific issues. Courtesy notes are a waste of my time.

To me, this is about tactics not courtesy. Taking a reading on the person interviewing you and deciding what’s going to put you in the best position going forward. For some, clearly the thank you note is a positive. I’m just offering one, non-statistically valid example of one employer where it’s not. (me).

quote:

Originally posted by Doug:

quote:

Originally posted by Nina:
I guess where I'm getting stuck is this. What I'm hearing is "why should I write a thank-you note? They should be thanking meeee for even considering working for them." This sounds petulant and bratty. I'm pretty sure that you're not petulant and bratty (can't vouch for Doug, though ), so I'm kind of stuck trying to figure out why the notion of a thank you email has struck such a negative chord. Because to me it's a relatively painless thing to do, it greases the social skids, it's nice, it's good manners. It has nothing to do with whether you have multiple job offers. It strikes me as common courtesy. If you've already decided you don't want the job then sure, don't write a thank you email. But if you're undecided or you do want the position, write the freaking email.

Maybe it is a gender thing. If so, you dudes need to get off your butts and be nice.

Don’t necessarily disagree with any of this. I was just offering up an example of some employers, me for example, not necessarily viewing a thank you note as a good thing from a candidate. I am suggesting that for some jobs, the right mindset for the interview is a discussion between equals about whether it is a mutual fit. As a candidate, I would certainly thank the interviewer for their time, as an interviewer I would certainly thank the candidate for coming in. We can handle that during the interview.

For subsequent communications, I would be more impressed by serious follow-ups on specific issues. Courtesy notes are a waste of my time.

To me, this is about tactics not courtesy. Taking a reading on the person interviewing you and deciding what’s going to put you in the best position going forward. For some, clearly the thank you note is a positive. I’m just offering one, non-statistically valid example of one employer where it’s not. (me).

See, I’m different. It takes me ten seconds to read a thank you email. It tells me that the person has the social grace to write a decent thank you. It’s a small thing, but not everyone manages to be engaging or charming in email, so kudos to those who can.

What I really do not want is a substantive note about an issue. Pal, you have not been hired, so do not bother me with “issues.” Any substantive answer I give would require more than ten seconds, might have HR implications, and involves my creating a record. I do not want that.

Wait until we have made an offer before you do more than engage in social niceties. Once the tables have turned and we want you, you can do anything you want to evaluate the opportunities.

Interesting. I wonder if part of this is due in part to dramatically different job markets in different parts of the country in the last several years?

For the last eight or nine years, I have been asked all of the questions Cindy says don’t get asked by candidates by people I interview.

As a hirer, I go into the process with the assumption that the better candidates will have choices about where they can work. If I go into this with the mindset that I am Lord of the Manor, and everyone wants to work for me, I don’t think that’s the path to getting the best candidates.

If I do end up with the impression that a candidate will absolutely take a job from me, it does reduce my need to fight HR for the highest possible number I can offer them. So there could be scenarios were appearing to have already decided you want the job could cost you money.

Also . . . This whole idea of not looking too interested in the job is fascinating.

One of the fastest ways to kill your chances of getting a job offer from me is let me catch even a whiff of lack of interest.

I have a job that needs filling, and the person I want has to want the job. A lot. The work is hard, the hours are long, the emotional load can be high. I can’t use anyone who is ambivalent or feels like they are a gift from god. I darn sure want to be confident that this person is super interested now and will remain so after they start.

Writing a thank you note says they are interested enough to write a note, and that is one of the few objective indicators of interest that I have to go on.

And honestly . . . Now that I know there are people out there who refuse to write notes on principle and I know that I do not agree with their principles, I may pay a bit more attention to which candidates write notes.

I imagine things might be different for folks like Doug who are at the top of the corporate ladder, but I like to think my job is awfully desirable for its own reasons. When we hire, we will get hundreds of applications for a couple of attorney jobs, and 90% will be qualified on paper.

I don’t think I’ll be advocating for anyone who gives off airs that I should be grateful that they applied or sat for an interview. I can’t take a chance on someone like that.

I’m with Doug on this one.

Employee/Employer is a partnership, not a military operation. Top down authoritarianism is a great way to make sure you hire only toadys and bootlickers. Millennials won’t stand for it for any length of time, and more power to ‘em.

OTOH I haven’t worked for anyone else for 30 years and don’t expect to start up again any time soon. I may be out of touch.

YMMV.

quote:

Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
I have a job that needs filling, and the person I want has to want the job. A lot. The work is hard, the hours are long, the emotional load can be high.

Emotional load?

Pro tip: That job sucks.

quote:

Originally posted by Doug:
Interesting. I wonder if part of this is due in part to dramatically different job markets in different parts of the country in the last several years?

For the last eight or nine years, I have been asked all of the questions Cindy says don’t get asked by candidates by people I interview.

As a hirer, I go into the process with the assumption that the better candidates will have choices about where they can work. If I go into this with the mindset that I am Lord of the Manor, and everyone wants to work for me, I don’t think that’s the path to getting the best candidates.

If I do end up with the impression that a candidate will absolutely take a job from me, it does reduce my need to fight HR for the highest possible number I can offer them. So there could be scenarios were appearing to have already decided you want the job could cost you money.

. Wow. So an applicant can plop down and ask whether they will be expected to work nights and weekends, and you wouldn’t run for the hills?

How about, “How many months would I have to work before I’d be entitled to maternity leave?”

I was raised that you as applicant do your vetting after they make an offer. There are plenty of probing questions you can ask before the offer that won’t signal that you are a flake.

quote:

Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
The interviewer has something you wanted enough to apply for and prepare for and dress up for and go across town for.

And I had something they wanted enough to pay for my travel.

quote:

You know how we can be sure the balance of power doesn’t tip in the interviewees favor?

Because interviewees do not feel free to ask the questions they would like to ask that would help them evaluate the job.

In my entire life, I have not even once had an interview where I did not ask questions about the job and the company.

Let me repeat that so you don’t miss it: Not Even Once.

In almost all cases, I was invited to ask questions.

And I never once have asked whether I’d have to work hard. Maybe you go after the kind of jobs where that’s a reasonable question. I do not.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Miller:

quote:

Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
I have a job that needs filling, and the person I want has to want the job. A lot. The work is hard, the hours are long, the emotional load can be high.

Emotional load?

Pro tip: That job sucks.

No, it doesn’t. Doing policing reform is hard, demanding, exhausting, and often heartbreaking.

I hope I can spend the rest of my career doing it.

W

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Miller:

quote:

Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
I have a job that needs filling, and the person I want has to want the job. A lot. The work is hard, the hours are long, the emotional load can be high.

Emotional load?

Pro tip: That job sucks.

Nailed it!