So here's a new question...

The first house we bought was built in 1960. There were lots of great things about it, but we decided we don't want to buy a place that old this time.

So so far we've been primarily looking at houses built in the mid 1990s or newer. But the FSBO house was built in the mid 1980s, and there's a 1970 house that looks really nice from the photos...

So what kinds of things should we watch for with these different ages? Any general recommendations?

(Obviously, if we make an offer on a house, we will have it inspected and we will not be waiving the inspection on *any* house, even if it was brand new).

a 70s house-- lead paint and asbestos.

I live in a 70s house. We likely have asbestos ceilings. It's been painted over which should contain it. If this bothers you, buy a house built after about 1980 (even though asbestos and lead were banned in the 70s, materials that were already manufactured could have been used later.)

also the quality of construction wasn't wonderful during the 70s and 80s--speaking very generally, of course.

In spite of the lead and asbestos considerations, I think I'd rather have a house built before WWII--higher standard of construction and higher quality of materials. Again, in general. If a house was custom built by a quality builder, rather than developer putting in tract houses, quality may be great.

You can sample paint and ceiling and siding and find out if there are issues, and get a contractor's opinion on whether mitigation is even necessary.

You’re on one of my favorite subjects.

Let’s skip 1960’s and older, although some of them are very nice and some of the issues can be mitigated, energy efficiency just wasn’t a thing then. I’m familiar with CA houses, YMMV.

By 1970, all houses were equipped with three wire grounded receptacles everywhere. Aluminum wiring was outlawed in most areas by 1970. The oil embargo of 1973 gave rise to a number of efficiency standards like insulated walls. By this time drywall became standard, a wall material superior to plaster in nearly every respect.

Lead paint and asbestos ceiling finishes were outlawed nearly everywhere by 1980, as was asbestos in things like flooring and drywall mud. Vinyl flooring replaced vinyl/asbestos flooring, although most of that stuff has been covered over by now and won’t be an issue. Ground fault interrupters were mandated in kitchens and baths and forced air heating and A/C became the norm. In CA, low flow faucets became standard, as did more stringent construction standards for earthquakes. You also start to see ABS drain piping which works much better than cast iron ever did.

1990’s brought in superior insulation technology,2x6 and 2x8 exterior walls, perimeter and under slab insulation and things like dual pane windows. By now a lot of them will be fogged over and need replacement, but houses were being built much tighter overall. Houses moved to more contemporary layouts and styling with larger rooms and higher ceilings.

By the 2000s electrical safety and conservation codes became the norm. More GFIs, fluorescent required in kitchens, baths, garages and outdoor spaces and individual circuits required for dishwashers, disposals, refrigerators and baths - to allow for big hair dryers. AF I circuit breakers start showing up. Heated floors became a thing and the 98% efficient furnace became a thing as well. Laminate counters went out of style and granite took over - a distinct improvement. Laminate flooring came in and most of it is still in fine shape today. Tyvek house wrap became common and solved a lot if air infiltration problems.

The 2010’s bring us to when this house was built - 2017. Our CA house was built in 1967 and was nothing like this. This crazy thing is a marvel of energy efficiency. Even in this God forsaken climate I think I could heat it with a toaster. The windows and doors are tight - so tight that there’s a bath fan that runs for a few minutes per hour to clear the house of things like fumes from the gas range and hairspray. Theres a certification sticker on the electric panel stating that the house passed a “blower door test” for air infiltration. The way it’s framed and sided will withstand a cat 4 earthquake (never happen here) or pretty much any tornado (not uncommon but not unheard of) and suffer no more than the loss of a little bit of siding. The toilets hardly use any water (Mansfield) and the furnace hardly runs.

Plumbing is in PEX, and although some states allow PVC (Florida), Pex is a big improvement over copper. The electrical panel is huge, with lots of individual circuits and most circuits protected with GFCIs. Siding is vinyl - not the most tactile choice but unbeatable for low maintenance and longevity in this climate - which is also your climate. My Huron house (1987) sided in red cedar and is rotting all to hell. Vinyl or brick are what you want.

My point is they really don’t build them like they used to, and given that the only thing worse than a midwestern winter is a midwestern summer, that’s a good thing. It might pay to try to find something built post-2000. It will narrow the already tight pool of available houses but over the long term I think you’ll be happiest. Your need to finely control humidity will make a tighter, better insulated house more desirable yet.

Can an older house be retrofitted to modern standards? Yes, to a point. Windows can be changed, furnaces and toilets can be replaced. Asbestos/lead abated - no big deal. But changing 2x4, poorly insulated walls to 2x6 or 2x8 to allow for modern insulation is prohibitively expensive and isn’t going to happen. Unless you re-side you can’t add Tyvek house wrap. Dated layouts aren’t cheap to change. Cast iron drain piping (or worse, terra cotta/lead) are pretty much forever.

It didn’t matter so much in CA, but in this climate it matters a lot.

quote:

Originally posted by piqué:

In spite of the lead and asbestos considerations, I think I'd rather have a house built before WWII--higher standard of construction and higher quality of materials. Again, in general. If a house was custom built by a quality builder, rather than developer putting in tract houses, quality may be great.

Nicer trim maybe, but trim is cheap and a lot of the quality features you remember (ceramic tile?) have long since gone out of date. Modern construction standards are superior to pre WW2 conventions in nearly every way. You’d have to re-pipe, rewire, replace the drain piping, the furnace, the air conditioning and re-insulate a pre WW2 house and you still wouldn’t have the 2x6 exterior walls and tight wrapping that are standard on houses today.

Approached as an art project, with sufficient funds, it could be fun. It will not, however, be inexpensive.

interesting. my 1936 house was built with 2x6s throughout. it definitely needed all those other upgrades you mentioned. we covered over a lot of walls and ceilings with new materials and installed new windows. Blew in new insulation and that house was very tight.

But based on your info, i think I will in future look for a post-2000 house. Thing is, real estate agents have told me they've seen terrible problems in lots of newly built houses. maybe it's state by state and the building standards are lower here?

Our 1880-era house has 3x8 joists on every floor. The contractor says elephants could dance on the top floor and the house wouldn’t move.

The mansard roof is slate and exactly one tile is cracked, probably in 140 years.

The doors are solid wood. Very quiet compared to my 1990s house in Massachusetts.

Yeah, there are things that need to be upgraded, and the insulation is poor. But the house has, as they say, good bones.

Did you blow insulation in the walls? I know it can be done but it’s not common. I want to blow insulation in to my garage walls (I heat it) but the prices I’m getting are outrageous. How did they do it? I’m looking in to buying the machine and doing it myself.

I remember that years ago you were saying your windows would ice over on the interior in the winter and you had to mop the condensation off of the window sills to keep them from rotting. I’ve seen houses here with marble window sills, presumably to ward off that rot. Did you have the problem after you replaced the windows?

We don’t have that issue but it never gets down to -40 here either.

quote:

Originally posted by QuirtEvans:
Our 1880-era house has 3x8 joists on every floor. The contractor says elephants could dance on the top floor and the house wouldn’t move.

The mansard roof is slate and exactly one tile is cracked, probably in 140 years.

The doors are solid wood. Very quiet compared to my 1990s house in Massachusetts.

Yeah, there are things that need to be upgraded, and the insulation is poor. But the house has, as they say, good bones.

I saw a slate roof going on the other day but I can’t imagine it was cheap. I can see how they’d last forever but I can’t imagine trying to find a competent slater to make necessary repairs. He’d have to be old enough I’d worry about him falling off of the roof.

Mansard, you say. What is the flat part constructed of? The new torch-on systems work very well but if it’s an older pine tar deal you’re going to have to watch it.

The thing to look at in a pre-1900 house is balloon framing. It’s a bit of a fire hazard, but the main thing to mitigate is cold air flowing up the walls from the ground to the attic. I have to believe there are insulation strategies that mitigate this issue.

3x8 joists (ceiling framing) or studs (wall framing)? An 8” stud cavity will allow for lots of blown in insulation and I’d invest in installing every bit that I could.

The 8” joists are interesting. Modern houses use engineered joists that are about 12” tall but made with particle board on edge. Remarkably strong - and light. It would be interesting to see test data on their performance vs. 3x8 dimensional lumber.

In 1880 it might have been hardwood. That would make a difference.

quote:

Originally posted by piqué:
Thing is, real estate agents have told me they've seen terrible problems in lots of newly built houses. maybe it's state by state and the building standards are lower here?

I think craftsmanship everywhere is hit or miss. This house is tight as a tick but the framing/drywall work, performed by Amish crews that are supposed to be superb - is terrible.

Most of the interior walls are so far out of plumb I had to install magnetic door stops so interior doors will stay open. The Vermilion house has the same issue. This is framer 101 and is inexcusable.

The crappy drywall work is easy enough. Now that I have the time I’ve fixed it room by room.

Ok this is all super interesting, thank you everyone for commenting!!

Does anyone remember the radio show Car Talk? (I guess maybe it’s a podcast now).

Steve, I think you should do a podcast, call it House Talk or Hammer And Nail or something…. Pretty sure it would be an instant hit!

Anyway, back to the discussion at hand…

Ok, so I will try to keep focusing on newer… the house that got away was built in 2002.

Re older houses… one of the things we loved about our 1960 house was the windows! The house was so light/bright and because the outside was so green and lush, the windows made it possible to enjoy the outside so much more. I’ve walked into some houses here that are so dark and dreary, very few windows, and then they add that gray wall paint, yuck!

But that house still had its original, single pane windows and the cost to replace would probably be off the charts. I would never want windows like that with these colder winters.

Re asbestos and lead… I definitely don’t want it, even if it’s covered up. If you want to remodel or there are repairs, you have to worry about it.

Re cedar siding, I don’t even know what that is, but the FSBO house guy said his house has cedar siding, I think he said something like “some people don’t like it but it’s in great shape.” That house was built in 1984. I’m hoping for more photos today… anyway, is there anything I should look for?

As an aside… the rental house we’re currently in was built in 1994. At some point, someone knocked out a wall so that the e living room and family room are open, and where there was a doorway, they made it a half wall with an opening at window height. It looks pretty good.

But the house also feels like it’s caving in on itself, and I can’t help but wonder if it’s because of this. It does have a crawl space, so it could be just regular settling. But the floors all slope in towards the center of the house. In the second floor guest rooms, both the room Mr SK uses as an office and the one I use as an office are so sloped that if you sit at the desk, which is along the wall, the office chairs we have (i.e. with wheels) are always being pulled away from the desk. It was so unpleasant that we put down four carpet tiles in each room (just enough for under the chairs) to keep the chairs in place. It might not sound like a big deal, you can feel how uneven the house is in every room.

In the kitchen, when you walk, other parts of the house shake a bit, like maybe the ductwork under floor rattles? Not sure but it just makes the house feel unstable.

I was paranoid about the piano but it seems ok, I have used a level on the top of the piano and it hasn’t changed in the 6 months the piano has been in the room. There are lots of other quirky things about it, but the whole house feels cheap and slapped together (even though it doesn’t look that bad). Everyone (the inspector, contractors etc) who looked at our 1960 house always said that house had good bones. I’m pretty sure no one would say that about this house!

The owners just moved out of state, we are the first rental tenants. When we first moved here I wondered why they didn’t just sell the house. But now I think it’s because it’s such a crappy house that they wouldn’t be able to sell it for much and a bunch of stuff would get flagged in inspection, so selling it would be a loss. (I could be wrong)

The house we’re going to go look at this morning was built in 1994. The description says they did a lot of remodeling, new windows, roof is less than 10 years old, HVAC and those things are all 7 years old or less (the description had all the specific dates, which is good to see)

The other house that got away was built in 1998, had its original roof and all the mechanicals were original as well, so we were worried about that.

quote:

Originally posted by ShiroKuro:
The house we’re going to go look at this morning was built in 1994. The description says they did a lot of remodeling, new windows, roof is less than 10 years old, HVAC and those things are all 7 years old or less (the description had all the specific dates, which is good to see).

Sounds promising!

quote:

Sounds promising!

It is... ugh. We didn't "love" it but there's sooo much good about it. There appear to zero maintenance things. We probably wouldn't even need to paint, we could move in without doing anything. There's an unfortunate reason behind it, the owners moved in not that long ago and then husband died suddenly (I think in the fall) so the wife now wants to sell asap and move to be near an her adult child. But you can tell they did various things with the intention of being there for a long time. My agent thinks they dropped the price to get eyes on it and there may be a bidding war...

Anyway, in many ways it checks all of our boxes and more.. But in others... like, I really dislike the color of the kitchen cabinets. But they're very new and very good quality, so you wouldn't want to just casually repaint... Maybe more substantial concerns are that it's a little farther out than I hoped, drive to my office it twice as long as the-house-that-got-away. But still, only 15 minutes..... the neighborhood is not really geared for walking (i.e. walking a dog, I don't mean walking to work or a grocery store). Oh, and there's a pretty busy road in the back and that road is slated for expansion.

I think that might be the big one...

Anyway, we need to think fast right now, because it's going to go fast I bet.

Ha! Are you thinking of getting a dog?