quote:

Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
... I think one must tread gently even with relatives....

Oh, hell yes. My philosophy is that, as a relative, I might get preferential treatment. But, to expect it (or, worse, to rely on it) is extremely dangerous. Fishing for an invitation in an extremely polite, roundabout manner isn't necessarily out of the question, but those are dangerous waters to sail. I agree with everything else Cindy said. There's never any excuse for imposing just because one is family. Family can be fickle, so I try not to p!$$ anyone off.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt G.:

quote:

Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
... I think one must tread gently even with relatives....

Oh, hell yes. My philosophy is that, as a relative, I might get preferential treatment. But, to expect it (or, worse, to rely on it) is extremely dangerous. Fishing for an invitation in an extremely polite, roundabout manner isn't necessarily out of the question, but those are dangerous waters to sail. I agree with everything else Cindy said. There's never any excuse for imposing just because one is family. Family can be fickle, so I try not to p!$$ anyone off.

Again, I just find that strange.

If I decide to visit my mother, I tell her that I'll be coming X night, and we'll be staying over, assuming that's convenient for her. I absolutely do not call her and tell her that I'll be in town and I'd love to get together with her if she's free, and then wait for her to ask.

And, when she came for Thanksgiving, she asked if she could stay here. She didn't wait for me to offer.

Does it perhaps depend on how close the relationship is? Which, again, makes it a question of the nature of the relationship, and the nature of the favor being asked?

Well sure. There are relationships where you wouldn't feel the need to ask if you can stay over. Like Quirt's mother example. But that example is actually based more on prior history than the relationship, isn't it? Say Mother just re-married. You'd still assume you could stay? I wouldn't -- I would do the hotel dance and make sure nothing had changed. Same thing if you now have a dog you intend to bring -- would you ask your mom if you can bring your dog? I wouldn't -- I would ask Mom if she knew any hotels that take dogs and then hope she offers to let the dog stay in her home.

But more to the point about Quirt's question about why one shouldn't ask on the theory the person can always just say no.

There is such a thing as "putting someone on the spot." We all understand what that means, right? It means asking someone for something directly such that all of the onus for declining is on them. This is OK if you are a salesperson. It is not OK if you have a social relationship, and if you do it a lot you will have fewer social relationships.

Given the choice, most people would prefer not to absolutely refuse a friend, so they might give in or inconvenience themselves to avoid giving offense or to avoid appearing rude. There are also cultures here in the U.S. where people are brought up not to say no, so you are really making life difficult for those people when you have polite alternatives.

A kind, thoughtful friend, then, will not put his or her friends on the spot when there is a reasonable way to avoid it. If I am getting a colonoscopy, I actually would not ask anyone to drive me. I would take an uber or a cab, or I would endure whatever waiting period was required before I could drive. If the cost of this would be a burden, I guess I would have to ask a friend but would probably not schedule the procedure until I had found someone who could do it and determined what date/time was most convenient for them. And I would probably offer them a tank of gas or a dinner, so I might as well just take the uber.

But let me flip the script -- why *not* just decide not to presume and instead let the person offer? After all, you'll feel better because you don't have to wonder if you put them on the spot, and they will feel better because they know they are hosting you of their own free will.

quote:

Well sure. There are relationships where you wouldn't feel the need to ask if you can stay over. Like Quirt's mother example. But that example is actually based more on prior history than the relationship, isn't it? Say Mother just re-married. You'd still assume you could stay? I wouldn't -- I would do the hotel dance and make sure nothing had changed. Same thing if you now have a dog you intend to bring -- would you ask your mom if you can bring your dog? I wouldn't -- I would ask Mom if she knew any hotels that take dogs and then hope she offers to let the dog stay in her home.

I believe you've just admitted it depends on the relationship and the context (what you call "history" I call "context", because "context" is more all-encompassing). As I said earlier:

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It depends on the relationship, it depends on the situation, and it depends on how the question is phrased.

And now it seems that, despite your desire to argue, you agree.

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If I am getting a colonoscopy, I actually would not ask anyone to drive me. I would take an uber or a cab, or I would endure whatever waiting period was required before I could drive. If the cost of this would be a burden, I guess I would have to ask a friend but would probably not schedule the procedure until I had found someone who could do it and determined what date/time was most convenient for them.

As I noted earlier, the hospital would have required an overnight stay. And, since the procedure was performed in the outpatient wing, an overnight stay would not have been permitted. The upshot: no ride home, no procedure. And yes, I did ask the friend in question when might be convenient, before scheduling. Since I did multiple reciprocal favors over the years ... for example, running over to the house to take care of something when they were away, and there was an emergency ... I think that's covered by the context of the relationship, and the nature of the relationship.

As I said, it depends on the relationship and the context.

There's one more point I need to address.

quote:

you'll feel better because you don't have to wonder if you put them on the spot, and they will feel better because they know they are hosting you of their own free will.

This misunderstands the fundamental nature of friendship.

Let me give you an example. Let's suppose that Cindy is single and wants to take a ski trip, but doesn't want to go alone. She suspects Nina might want to go, too. But how will Cindy ever know without asking? And, in the event that Nina really doesn't want to go, isn't Cindy putting Nina on the spot by asking? I suppose Cindy could mention a ski trip and then wait until she sees whether Nina says "oh, that sounds like fun," but maybe Nina's just being polite, and has no real interest in going. Cindy could mention it and wait for Nina to ask whether she could tag along ... but then isn't Nina putting Cindy on the spot, in the event that Cindy doesn't want to have Nina along? At some point, someone has to say something concrete. You can dance around forever, but, at some point, someone has to make the first overture.

Moreover, if Cindy never asks about the ski trip because she doesn't want to put Nina on the spot, and if Nina never asks whether she can go because she doesn't want to put Cindy on the spot, they will never go anywhere together. They won't go on a ski trip, they won't go to the theater together, they won't go to dinner, they won't go out for a cup of coffee ... all because Cindy doesn't want to put Nina on the spot in the event that Nina doesn't want to go, and all because Nina doesn't want to put Cindy on the spot in case Cindy doesn't want Nina to come along. Any form of suggestion to do something together puts the other party on the spot.

The same, by the way, is true of an invitation to stay over at someone's house. Let's say I'm going to Washington, and I tell markb I'll be around in case he wants to grab dinner. markb might say, "hey Quirt, do you need a place to stay? You're welcome here!" But then isn't he putting ME on the spot by making a kind offer that I need to reject? How will he ever know that I'm not staying over at his house just because he asked, and now I feel some sense of obligation? After all, he's put me on the spot by offering.

The only difference between the "asking whether you can stay at the house" situation and the "ski trip" situation is that one is more in the nature of a favor. But friends ask each other favors. At least in my experience, they do. My friends ask me favors, and do favors for me. I had always assumed that was an element of friendship, but maybe it isn't for some people.

Side comment - the whole hospital procedure thing!! Ugh! What do people do when they truly don't have someone to accompany them??

My mother needs cataract surgery (which is outpatient) and she's waiting until we can schedule it to coincide with my visiting her because although she has friends there, she doesn't want to ask any of them to accompany her.

Life just goes better, IMO, if people just ask for what they want and aren't offended when told no. Friends who fish around for an invite in the ways that Cindy suggests aren't fooling anybody. It's pretty transparent when someone would like a favor but isn't coming out and asking. So not only have they *still* put me on the spot, they have also annoyed me with their phoniness.

Also, I have felt put on the spot when someone has repeatedly offered to put me up but I don't want to stay with them. Since you can't win no matter what you do, may as well be upfront about your real intentions.

I will note there are exceptions to this. When I was looking for a place to board my horse, I quickly learned that very few people are willing to care for an acquaintance's horse for any amount of money--and I was new to town, so everyone in the horse world here was an acquaintance. It was critical that I not alienate new horsey friends--we all need each other in these parts--but word of mouth was also the only way to find a place.

So I let people know I was looking, including general announcements at horse clubs, but made it a rule to never ask any specific person if they would take her. Just "let me know if you hear of anything". Some people made a big effort to help, while not offering their own place, and now we are friends. I figure if they don't want to board it is none of my business why. It's a lot to ask of someone. If they tried to offer an apology or explanation, I would stop them.


So I guess the answer is... it depends.....

It is interesting to me that so many people claim to be bewildered by nuance in social relationships and that the remedy for that is brutal frankness.

Take Quirt's elaborate "How will anyone ever meet up for a cup of coffee unless we all say exactly what we want?" world.

In the more nuanced approach I take, a "hint" is not "phoniness." "Phoniness", IMHO, is saying something you don't mean in a way that is too transparent or over-the-top, often to curry favor. "Phoniness," for instance, might be telling your friend that her home is the most beautiful you have ever seen and you are dying to spend a few nights to savor the decor, when in fact you just want to avoid the cost of a hotel. I see "nuance" as graciousness -- making the effort to phrase things to cause others less stress and embarrassment.

Consider the dating world. You can come right out when you meet someone and say "I'd love to sleep with you as soon as possible, so let's grab dinner and then go back to my place and have sex." Ugh, no. You hint and send signals so that if the other person isn't interested that everyone saves face and no one has to feel that they were too harsh expressing their lack of interest.

Well, if you can send and receive signals about something as delicate as mating, you are perfectly capable of sending and receiving signals about whether you are welcome as a houseguest. It just takes a bit more care.

In dating, someone has to take the leap and ask. It's possible to circle around each other for a while, but that takes a lot of time, and is often viewed as disinterest. Many women have said, in one way or another, if you want to ask me out, just ask. A two week e-mail conversation makes me think that you don't want to meet in person, or that you're keeping me on the hook while you figure out where you are with someone else.

Being straightforward is sometimes an advantage, and is sometimes critically necessary.

People differ. You have to treat each situation as sui generis. Otherwise, you are guaranteed to be wrong a big percentage of the time. You may be wrong sometimes anyway, but at least you're being authentic to your judgment, and not following an arbitrary ruleset.

Hi! I am in Washington DC right now. Should I invite myself to Cindy's?

Well, this is timely.

We recently had to leave town for LS college graduation, and then on to a vacation.

A relative asked to use our home to house her motorcycle club, which is a group of about six women I have never met. This meant that while I was doing all the things one does to prepare for a two week trip, I also had to get the entire house ready for guests. Laundry. Linen changes on all beds. Thorough bathroom cleaning, including replacing moldy shower curtains. All manner of tidying.

I'm sorry, but I thought this was pretty forward. Who asks to flop in someone's house when they go on vacation? Mr. Sphinx didn't want to say no to his sister, so there we are.

Did I have to do all that prep? No. Am I comfortable letting strangers see how filthy and disorganized I am? No.

Never again.

Jesus, Cindy. That’s above and beyond.

P

quote:

Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
Well, this is timely.

We recently had to leave town for LS college graduation, and then on to a vacation.

A relative asked to use our home to house her motorcycle club, which is a group of about six women I have never met. This meant that while I was doing all the things one does to prepare for a two week trip, I also had to get the entire house ready for guests. Laundry. Linen changes on all beds. Thorough bathroom cleaning, including replacing moldy shower curtains. All manner of tidying.

I'm sorry, but I thought this was pretty forward. Who asks to flop in someone's house when they go on vacation? Mr. Sphinx didn't want to say no to his sister, so there we are.

Did I have to do all that prep? No. Am I comfortable letting strangers see how filthy and disorganized I am? No.

Never again.

No way I would allow that and I can’t imagine anyone asking.

OK, my apologies to Cindy for the bad timing and for not making it clear that it was a joke. I am in Washington DC chaperoning an educational field trip. For this trip, as a chaperone I cannot leave the group, so there is no way I can visit anyone on my own, invited or not. So my previous post was made only in jest. I am already on a bus leaving Washington DC as I type.