Oh well. I would wait, then. The tuning is going to change anyway. It never stays right where the tuner put it. Not until it's been completely stabilized in its new environment, and then it also needs to adjust to the dampp chaser.

I understand (very much so!) how awful it can be to deal with an out-of-sorts piano, but if you wanted to save money the best thing would have been to wait awhile after the dampp chaser was installed and let the piano settle, then get the tuning.

For now, I suggest you just play it as it is and know that you don't really know yet what you are going to get until you get another tuning on a stable piano. And listen to it as it changes. It may mellow out as the unisons shift and the humidity changes.

I would do all you can with humidity regulation, temperature regulation, playing in, and tuning to your ear before I would even think of so much as bringing up the idea of voicing to your tuner. Voicing, depending on how it is practiced, makes permanent changes that you may not like. It's not possible for a tech to know ahead of time what will please you with voicing, and once it is done it is difficult--sometimes impossible--to go back to what it was.

Don't underestimate the changes that can be achieved with stretch characteristic--how the tuner fits the pencils in the box, to use my earlier analogy. It is also going to change with the type of music you play. Something that sounds glorious with Bach may not sound great with Debussy.

1. Just play it for a few months and pay attention to how it is changing
2. Keep the humidity and temperature stable for those same few months
3. Re-read Grand Obsession
4. When the tech comes again, ask him to tune a pure fifth for you in the middle of the keyboard. See how it affects you compared to a fifth played the octave above. If it doesn't affect you, get his version of equal temperament tuned. If it *does* make a difference to you, ask him to experiment with stretch characteristics on a fifth to see what appeals to you, if you like it more energetic, or if you prefer it more calm. (energetic=wider stretch; calm=narrower stretch). Or just go ahead and try the well temperament and see if you prefer it to his ET.

If this tech doesn't understand what you are doing with this experiment, then just go with a tuning in his arsenal and don't get into all the esoteric stuff with him. You will either like his ET or his well, or you won't. The odds of him being sensitive to this business are not great. If you don't like his tunings, look for someone else.

And if he *does* understand what you are asking for, you might loan or give him a copy of G.O. so you will have the same language to talk about this. And hang onto him.

It is a see-saw effect. Making one interval closer to pure pushes another farther from pure - no real way around that with twelve 1/2 steps to an octave.

Right now, play the A above middle C(A4) and the A below middle C (A3) together and listen for a swell or motion or beating. From there, listen to the A4 with the D and then the E below. Can you hear a slow beat about 1 per second with either? That is pretty much the standard octave width used. If the tuner would move the A3 down (wider octave) just a bit and retune all the notes between, then the 5th would beat a little slower and the 4th a little faster. The opposite happens if the A3 is tuned a little higher (narrower octaves) - 4ths are slower while 5ths are faster.

If you can't feel the beating, no worries, just keep playing!

Popular in the tuning world now is the "perfect 12th tuning", which is another sort of compromise that ends up making the octave + 5th sound pure. It is a little wider than normal and makes the 5ths closer to pure.

quote:

Originally posted by rontuner:
It is a see-saw effect. Making one interval closer to pure pushes another farther from pure - no real way around that with twelve 1/2 steps to an octave.

Right now, play the A above middle C(A4) and the A below middle C (A3) together and listen for a swell or motion or beating. From there, listen to the A4 with the D and then the E below. Can you hear a slow beat about 1 per second with either? That is pretty much the standard octave width used. If the tuner would move the A3 down (wider octave) just a bit and retune all the notes between, then the 5th would beat a little slower and the 4th a little faster. The opposite happens if the A3 is tuned a little higher (narrower octaves) - 4ths are slower while 5ths are faster.

If you can't feel the beating, no worries, just keep playing!

Popular in the tuning world now is the "perfect 12th tuning", which is another sort of compromise that ends up making the octave + 5th sound pure. It is a little wider than normal and makes the 5ths closer to pure.

interesting. Marc used 12ths and 17ths.

quote:

Originally posted by piqué:

(Big snips before and after). It's because they use an Accu-Tuner or similar and are following a program. If they were using their ears instead of watching flashing lights they might discover how to paint a picture instead of paint by numbers.

Just wanted to offer an update. Yes, there are plenty of techs still using 20, 30 or 40 yr. old tech to tune... And most never learn how to take advantage of the custom features available allowing them to achieve better results with any of the tech.

Some of the newest gear gathers information from A0-C7 to be able to internally predict the beat rates of many intervals based on the types of stretches chosen and apply that to the tuning calculation with the guidance of the tech.

One even goes a step further and offers suggestions for the probable "best" settings to achieve the smooth progression of intervals - often better than most aural techs can achieve.

It is a common misconception that all of the tuning apps are pretty much the same - even among techs!

I stumbled across this YouTube explanation of tuning and intervals that I found particularly explanatory and accompanied by a lot of interesting comments: The Mathematical Problem with Music, and How to Solve It

Big Al

Very good presentation!

quote:

Right now, play the A above middle C(A4) and the A below middle C (A3) together and listen for a swell or motion or beating. From there, listen to the A4 with the D and then the E below. Can you hear a slow beat about 1 per second with either? That is pretty much the standard octave width used. If the tuner would move the A3 down (wider octave) just a bit and retune all the notes between, then the 5th would beat a little slower and the 4th a little faster. The opposite happens if the A3 is tuned a little higher (narrower octaves) - 4ths are slower while 5ths are faster.

If you can't feel the beating, no worries, just keep playing!

I tried this last night, and I think I know what you mean about the beating, but I find I can’t imagine anything other than what I’m hearing at present. Which is to say, it’s hard (impossible) for me to think about whether I would like it if the A3 were moved down and everything in between retuned…

Separate from that, I don’t think I like the current tuning. It’s too bright or shimmery. One of the pieces I’m playing right now have five flats, and I esp. don’t like how that piece sounds …

Interesting.... Ok, try this next.

The 5ths "breathe" or beat very slowly. (It would've been nice if the video played the 5ths instead of just comparing the two notes)

The major thirds beat is usually more apparent. Start with A4 (A above middle c) and play it together with the F below. Most tuners aiming for ET will set this to beat/waver/pulse about 7 times/second. Can you hear that? If you drop the F down an octave, the beats will slow and that might be easier to hear.

Now if you go up and down by 1/2 steps (either M3rd or Octave + M3) the speed should gradually increase going up and decrease going down. If, for example C-E is slow and C#-F is much faster, and then D-F# is slower, then that's not a successful ET.

The 'shimmer' with lots of flats sounds more like a well temperament possibility...

quote:

The 'shimmer' with lots of flats sounds more like a well temperament possibility...

I was wondering about that... I really hope he didn't decide to just do his own tuning, on the assumption that I wouldn't notice!

Is it paranoid to think that?

P.S. I'm not at home right now but I'll try what you described later. Thank you!!

I didn't ask - is there a similar shimmer to other keys as well? Another common thing that happens before tuning is that the faster beating/shimmer that happens with a clinical equal temperament is obscured by the general spread and out of tune unisons and octaves.

Well, I finally made a few recordings and uploaded them to Box. Ron, please give a listen if you have a minute.

I need to listen again, but with my completely ignorant ears, I don’t think this is a WT tuning… and it actually has been sounding better to me the last few times I’ve played, and I wonder if either I’ve gotten used to it, or the dampp chaser is doing its thing and maybe I got it tuned too soon?

img_5660.mov is thirds
https://app.box.com/s/u5w8d6d3...lttp0xv7s5y49yuh3wu1

img_5661.mov is 5ths
https://app.box.com/s/sppqfizm...yai8p3e2j6gy0ew6wq60

img_5665.mov is 10ths
https://app.box.com/s/qbsjcr6a...7izixemi90f5aj60yr5k

img_5666.mov is single notes
https://app.box.com/s/m91v3w28...cj2db62bm4mt6hyeacky

img_5667.mov is octaves
https://app.box.com/s/qfwtvnkl...bpzvlyjj79jyorotsady

here’s something with four flats.. I guess it sounds ok (the piano, not my playing)

https://app.box.com/s/a7cvo58s...dyh0w3mb7iopwvv11e9q

If there’s something else I should play/record please let me know.