Oh wow, I would love to hear that presentation live! Even with the sometimes wonky video sound you can tell the difference. Very interesting!

ETA I had to chuckle seeing the overhead projector in use. When I first started teaching in the US I used one…

The guy that played for our demo also just played a simple cadence (maybe I-IV-V-I?) - then moved around the circle of fifths with the same cadence to hear the change. It made it easy to hear even in the weaker temperaments.

quote:

Originally posted by ShiroKuro:
I had my dampp chaser installed and the tech is coming back later next week to tune my piano.

He recommended I try a well-tempered tuning, which is his preferred tuning. He said he does a modern style well-tempered tuning, whatever that means. although he said he could do an equal temperament tuning if I prefer.

I’m open to it, but also, what if I hate it? Does anyone have any thoughts about how to think about this?

Did he say why he was suggesting a well-tempered tuning?

I don't know much about it, but I will say that perfect 3rds are absolutely gorgeous... but on a keyboard there's a tradeoff.

eta: I was going to mention that there are some electric keyboards (synthesizers) than can switch between temperaments. If you are up to spending on one, you could experiment away!

quote:

Did he say why he was suggesting a well-tempered tuning?

We were setting up the tuning appointment and he said something like that he usually does a well-tempered tuning and that he can do an equal temperament if I prefer but that the well-tempered sounds better and maybe he said something about how I seemed very like someone who pays attention to that kind of thing so he thought I would like it better? I don’t remember exactly…

But then we started talking about it and it’s clear he thinks an equal temperament is subpar. He said something like “equal temperament sounds equally bad in all keys”

quote:

eta: I was going to mention that there are some electric keyboards (synthesizers) than can switch between temperaments. If you are up to spending on one, you could experiment away!

So the funny thing is, I don’t want to experiment and this wasn’t even my idea.

I’m curious about the sound and if it sounded better, that would be great. But I also don’t want to be mucking about for several months trying to get the sound I want. I like my piano just fine when it’s tuned up and sounding like itself.

Maybe in the summertime when I have a little more free time, I can see if there’s a piano on campus that has a well-tempered tuning and see what I think. But I really don’t want to be stuck for months with a tuning that isn’t working for me.

"Stuck with a tuning that isn't working for me"

It sounds to me... that's where you are now with your last tuning?

Without knowing his preferred tuning, we are all just guessing. Just know there is quite a range of what technicians tune in the field that they call equal temperament. Even registered piano technicians that proved on one day they were able to tune an acceptable equal temperament (within +/- 1 cent) for the test often don't accomplish that regularly in the field!

Technicians will often say "but no one has ever asked for another temperament", to which I reply, "how often has a client asked for equal temperament?" For me, that is exactly twice in over 40 years of tuning.

If you get a name of the temperament - and can then find it on the rolling ball site, just look at the general curve produced without focusing on any of the details. Equal temperament would be represented by a horizontal line. The lower the curve, the less extreme would be the change from equal.

Can you tell that I want you to give it a go?!?

quote:

Can you tell that I want you to give it a go?!? Big Grin

I kind of do too, that's why I haven't just said no outright!

So as it happens, I texted him this morning, and he said he uses a "modern developed Coleman 16." He said it's "fairly mild."
I'm going to look at the rolling ball site (if I can understand it).

BTW re this:

quote:

"Stuck with a tuning that isn't working for me"

It sounds to me... that's where you are now with your last tuning?

Yeah, I didn't really like my last tuning, it wasn't bad but it wasn't great. I think maybe that tuner was just inexperienced? At this point, of course, the weather and humidity were the bigger factors, but now that the room humidity is higher and the DC is installed, the piano is ready. (fingers crossed!)

Ok so I kind of figured out how to use the rolling ball site!

I went here
https://www.rollingball.com/TemperamentsFrames.htm

and realized you have to click those links up above! (took me a while to even spot them.... )


(ETA hey, there's your tuning, Ron!)

Anyway, when you click on "modern well" up at the top, you can see this


So, this visual is meaningless to me... Is there an ET one I can compare it to somewhere?

See the thin red horizontal line? That would be where the curve would land in ET.

I think somewhere on the site is a graph for equal - or click on the quasi-equal.

See in the upper right where there are two numbers representing the M3 range? (ET is about 14) 19.7 is a little strong for me...

Maybe have him check out my Victorian - it is a little weaker than the Coleman16 but a little more balanced in the 5ths (blue bars going down) That's a favorite of a few of the piano teachers around here that wanted something just a little stronger than the equal replacement.

Otherwise the Coleman 11 is a step down from the 16.

Thanks!

So I had looked before but there were so many options I didn't pick up on the one that's just ET. Here it is, altho it's not the same kind of visual:



Ahh, ok, so the distance in an interval in a major 3rd in ET is 13.7, but this one it's 19.7? Is that the right way to articulate it?

Hmm, I don't think I want to do this on my piano (the only instrument I have to play) without having heard it before...

Yeah, the guy that developed the site began putting the m3 going down after some time and didn't update earlier versions.

Oops, I didn't see your other post, where you posted your tuning. Thanks!

I'll keep it in mind, but I think I'm going to ask him to do an ET this time, then maybe in the summer when I have more time, I can try to find a piano to try out. He said he has a fair number of clients in town, so maybe?? That might be kind of awkward though, "hi you don't know me but can I play your piano to hear its tuning?"

As an aside (or maybe not an aside, maybe this is the main dish??) when he as talking about his tuning approach, he described equal temperament as "sounding equally bad in all keys" ...

So now I'm going to ask him to do a tuning for me that he doesn't think sounds good? Oof.

That's the compromise needed to fit the intervals within an octave.

Think of stacking M3rds up until you hit the same note name again. (C-E-G#/Ab-C) If you make those M3rds sound pure (like a brass ensemble or excellent vocal group) when you stack up to the octave, it sounds horribly flat. (That's what happens when keys can represent two different notes!) It turns out that if you expand each M3rd by 13.7 cents, the octave works.

Every tuning is a compromise. Using his words, a Well tempered keys range between "less bad and more bad", while equal is "equally bad" in all keys.

So no, it's not that he thinks it sounds bad, just prefers playing on a different tuning.

quote:

Every tuning is a compromise.

I'm realizing that now!

quote:

Using his words, a Well tempered keys range between "less bad and more bad", while equal is "equally bad" in all keys.

I will let you know how it goes!!