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Originally posted by ShiroKuro:
Should I try well-tempered tuning?

Only if you are going to play all of the selections from Bach's The Well Tempered Clavier.

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Only if you are going to play all of the selections from Bach's The Well Tempered Clavier.

Not any time soon!

And now to go just a little deeper down the rabbit hole...

pitch is measured in Hz.
A4=440 Hz
A3=220 Hz
A5=880 Hz

So doubling every octave. Using cents (1200 cents=octave) helps us make sense (tee hee) using a simpler division.

So when tuners claim "every third is the same in ET" That means they measure the same in cents.

Here's the big surprise.... they don't sound the same! (shhh. don't tell anyone)

Here's that ET graph again



The numbers in the red represent the beat speed of the M3 in circle of fifths order from left to right. The one on the left C3-E3 = 5.2 while the one an octave higer =10.4 (lots of caveats here for tuners)

The numbers jump up and down until placed in chromatic order - then they evenly speed up across the octave. The m3 also goes through its own progression.

Major triad = M3-m3 stack. So if the M3 beats change and the m3 beats change for every chord, then what makes ET "feel" the same. That would be the number down in the pink bars - the relationship of m3/M3 ratio gives that number.

Low in the keyboard, the beats are really too slow to count, and way up high, the beats get too fast and just flutter.


The point of this whole long explanation is that the changes of beat speeds are there in equal temperament in chromatic order, while in well temperament, the speeds are in a different order - which also changes the m3/M3 ratio...

It's really fascinating to think about!

And it explains why these subtle differences are so important, because they are there, they're real.

Given the search piqué went through to find the tuning and voicing she wanted for Marlene, I'm surprised she hasn't weighed in on this topic.

I've been wondering how the subject of temperament applies to instruments other than pianos. It seems to me that similar choices are made in the design of instruments with frets or keys, but with limited or no opportunity to adjust the relationship of individual notes to each other after the instrument is manufactured. I can see how some relationships could be altered during the tuning of the individual strings of an instrument such as a guitar, but aren't the resonant frequencies of something like a trumpet established by the lengths of each branch of tubing off the valves with only the overall pitch adjusted via the tuning slide? As I have no significant experience playing brasses or woodwinds, there may be subtleties that I don't appreciate.

Big Al

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Given the search piqué went through to find the tuning and voicing she wanted for Marlene, I'm surprised she hasn't weighed in on this topic.

Indeed! I was hoping she'd join in. Either she hasn't seen the thread, or it's too much to get into!

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Originally posted by big al:
Given the search piqué went through to find the tuning and voicing she wanted for Marlene, I'm surprised she hasn't weighed in on this topic.

I've been wondering how the subject of temperament applies to instruments other than pianos. It seems to me that similar choices are made in the design of instruments with frets or keys, but with limited or no opportunity to adjust the relationship of individual notes to each other after the instrument is manufactured. I can see how some relationships could be altered during the tuning of the individual strings of an instrument such as a guitar, but aren't the resonant frequencies of something like a trumpet established by the lengths of each branch of tubing off the valves with only the overall pitch adjusted via the tuning slide? As I have no significant experience playing brasses or woodwinds, there may be subtleties that I don't appreciate.

Big Al

It has to do with two things - the sustain, and whether the instrument is fixed pitch (organ, piano) or variable pitch. (Brass, woodwind, strings, voice)

Organ, piano & harpsichord (and synths) are the major instruments where alternate temperaments are most noticable.

Voice and the other instruements families I mentioned all tune "on the fly" - often as much as 10 cents or so to make the intervals sound 'proper'.

Guitar, like you mentioned has fixed frets and usually a shorter sustain. Harp has it's own issues with the pedals allowing for 1/2 step up or down for each of the same note letter.

As for Pique's piano, from what I could tell, the tuner had a particular form of stretch between the octaves that she liked, plus his voicing. His goal was equal temperament according to some data she shared with me during the writing of the book.

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His goal was equal temperament according to some data she shared with me during the writing of the book.

It's been so long since I read it, plus I didn't own a grand myself when GO came out. I should read it again now that I do!

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Originally posted by ShiroKuro:
I’ve been listening to these two videos… don’t know what to think yet. Of course, what you can tell from a video is limited…



[FLASH_VIDEO]<iframe frameborder="0" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/fb7-dkCMAzE?si=dpJHmL03AfN_foj8" title="YouTube video player" width="560">[/FLASH_VIDEO]

The comparison would have been much more helpful if the same piece was played in both videos, so you are comparing apples to apples.

From what I can infer through crappy speakers and the handicap of two different pieces, I much prefer the first (top) video. Which tuning is it?

Also, it's Bach. Well-tempered tuning is nice with Bach. Maybe not so nice with Rachmaninoff. YMMV.

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Originally posted by ShiroKuro:

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His goal was equal temperament according to some data she shared with me during the writing of the book.

It's been so long since I read it, plus I didn't own a grand myself when GO came out. I should read it again now that I do!

Yes, SK. I think you will find many of your questions answered in GO. Think of a tuning as a painting, and the tuner as the holder of the brush and palette. By manipulating the stretch characteristics between the notes and the way he tunes unisons, he can create many different colors and impressions.

Most tuners just have one tuning they do, and they believe it is only possible to do one tuning, or that only one tuning is the "correct" tuning.

If I may suggest:

Have your tuner put the piano in his version of equal temperament (there are many versions). Then ask him to play around with the stretch between thirds, fifths, and octaves, so you can hear the difference. You aren't going to be playing a piece, just playing the chord intervals.

First, listen to those intervals in his version of equal temperament.

Then, ask him to change those intervals so that they are pure, and play them again.

It's the difference between a lake rippling in the wind, and a perfectly still, reflective pond.

If you are sensitive enough to care about how your piano is tuned, you will have an emotional response to these differences in stretch between intervals, and you will passionately prefer one over the other. No need for him to completely retune the piano unless pure intervals are very moving to you.

The purer the intervals are tuned, the longer the distance between the "beats" or vibrato. There is as little vibration as possible. The sound waves of the two notes are actually traveling perfectly together, physically, in space.

Because it is impossible to tune all the intervals pure and have a playable piano, tuners have to make micro adjustments to the intervals so that they all fit together. This ruins their purity. The wider the stretch, the more jangly the piano. The closer to pure, the more peaceful the sound.

Imagine you have to fit 9 pencils into a box that only fits 8 pencils. Or perhaps more accurately, the box fits 9 pencils and you only have 8 to put in there. How will you do this? This is the trick of tuning. How much is shaved off the side of each pencil? Or how much is each pencil widened?

A really gifted tuner can make these micro adjustments in equal temperament in such a way as to fool the ear into hearing purity, when, in fact, the intervals have to be stretched. It's a sleight of hand. Or as Marc Wienert said in my book: "A tuning is a bunch of tiny little lies that come together into one big lie of being in tune."

The sound of the lies is what your tuner is asking if you want to change. But there are infinite ways to modify those lies, and if your tuner does it in a way that you will respond to, it is just dumb luck. finding a tuner who tunes the way your ear hears is harder than finding a husband, I can tell you that.

I also want to say--if the difference between an ET tuned fifth and a purely tuned fifth doesn't rock your world, or maybe you are even indifferent or don't hear it, then don't bother with changing the tuning to well.

JMHO.

Hi piqué! Thanks for all the comments! As it happens, the tuner came yesterday morning, but I probably couldn’t have implemented much of your advice during this tuning in any case (it was a morning tuning, and he had to get in and out so I could go to work!)

For now, I’m just so happy to have the piano tuned. After the awful cold snap and humidity drop, it just sounded awful. Now the dampp chaser is in and the piano tuned, whew.

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Originally posted by piqué: Think of a tuning as a painting, and the tuner as the holder of the brush and palette. By manipulating the stretch characteristics between the notes and the way he tunes unisons, he can create many different colors and impressions.

That’s such a great way to put it!

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Most tuners just have one tuning they do, and they believe it is only possible to do one tuning, or that only one tuning is the "correct" tuning.

I wonder if this is because so much of the art in tuning is based on the ear and subjectivity/sensitivity, rather than objectivity…

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If I may suggest:

I will keep these suggestions for next time, thank you!

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If you are sensitive enough to care about how your piano is tuned, you will have an emotional response to these differences in stretch between intervals, and you will passionately prefer one over the other.

This emotional response is so interesting… I do wonder if my piano is up to the task though… after it got tuned yesterday, it sounded sooo much better, after all it was in really bad shape before that. But at the same, time, now it sounds too bright to me… could be from the dryness impacting the hammers? Or it needs to be voiced? Not sure, but I wonder how those details impact the tuning (and the beats) that you’re talking about.

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finding a tuner who tunes the way your ear hears is harder than finding a husband, I can tell you that.

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Originally posted by piqué:
I also want to say--if the difference between an ET tuned fifth and a purely tuned fifth doesn't rock your world, or maybe you are even indifferent or don't hear it, then don't bother with changing the tuning to well.

JMHO.

This makes sense to me. I’m sure there are people who respond, and people who don’t.

Am I one of those people who respond? Don’t know yet.

I know that I love a well-tuned piano, and I *love* acoustic pianos exactly because of the very “organic” qualities of the sound.

Do I respond emotionally to pianos? Yes, but is it because of the tuning? The music? Something else? That’s harder to figure out.

So as you suggest, doing some experiments is probably the only way to figure that out.

Oh and the other question: is this new (to me) tuner the person to do these experiments with? I don’t know yet!

I wish I had my tuner here from where we lived before, the one who did the regulation and voicing on my piano when I first got it. Sigh.

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Originally posted by ShiroKuro:
Hi piqué! Thanks for all the comments! As it happens, the tuner came yesterday morning, but I probably couldn’t have implemented much of your advice during this tuning in any case (it was a morning tuning, and he had to get in and out so I could go to work!)

For now, I’m just so happy to have the piano tuned. After the awful cold snap and humidity drop, it just sounded awful. Now the dampp chaser is in and the piano tuned, whew.

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Most tuners just have one tuning they do, and they believe it is only possible to do one tuning, or that only one tuning is the "correct" tuning.

I wonder if this is because so much of the art in tuning is based on the ear and subjectivity/sensitivity, rather than objectivity…

No. It's because they use an Accu-Tuner or similar and are following a program. If they were using their ears instead of watching flashing lights they might discover how to paint a picture instead of paint by numbers.

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If you are sensitive enough to care about how your piano is tuned, you will have an emotional response to these differences in stretch between intervals, and you will passionately prefer one over the other.

This emotional response is so interesting… I do wonder if my piano is up to the task though… after it got tuned yesterday, it sounded sooo much better, after all it was in really bad shape before that. But at the same, time, now it sounds too bright to me… could be from the dryness impacting the hammers? Or it needs to be voiced? Not sure, but I wonder how those details impact the tuning (and the beats) that you’re talking about.

The brightness is partially because it will tend that way, being a Yamaha (IIRR that is what your piano is?), as that is part of the sound design/signature of that make of piano. That doesn't mean you can't change it--you can. Humidity and temperature definitely affect tone. Tuning is also voicing. The voicing changes as the piano is tuned. The brightness could be from the style of tuning your tuner used, how he makes intervals.

If your piano's character changes with tuning, then certainly there will be a noticeable difference between equal tuning and pure tuning.

if your tuner fools around with temperaments, then there is no harm in having him demonstrate for you the different stretch characteristics so you can discover what appeals to you.

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The brightness is partially because it will tend that way, being a Yamaha (IIRR that is what your piano is?), as that is part of the sound design/signature of that make of piano. That doesn't mean you can't change it--you can. Humidity and temperature definitely affect tone.

Yes I have a Yamaha C2 (2000, 5’8”). When I bought it in 2019, I had it regulated and voiced, and I never thought it was too bright.

But an important detail is that this piano was a one-owner before I bought it and it had lived its whole life in the south/southeast until we moved last summer. So this winter, and that crazy cold snap, was probably the first of that kind of weather/humidity it had experienced. And that undoubtedly had a huge, and negative, impact.

Before the dampp chaser was installed, it was so out of tune and so jangly that I don’t know if it was “bright” per se, although I do remember thinking that the hammers seemed affected by the humidity drop. I mean, the whole thing was affected!

So it may be the case that I should have waited another week or two between dampp chaser install and tuning, but the piano was pretty much unplayable! Now, even if it’s too bright, it’s playable (thank god) and sounds pretty good.

I think I probably need to play it for a few weeks almost just to get reacquainted with it and figure out what to play for him to explain what I don’t like about it right now.

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Tuning is also voicing. The voicing changes as the piano is tuned. The brightness could be from the style of tuning your tuner used, how he makes intervals.

Right and this is the detail that right now is an unknown, but it seems likely to me that it’s a combination of his tuning and the humidity. The dampp chaser has only been in for a week as of today.

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If your piano's character changes with tuning, then certainly there will be a noticeable difference between equal tuning and pure tuning.

By this, do you mean that the instrument itself has that potential? I agree, or at least I believe this piano is the kind of piano that is really responsive to how it’s maintained.

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there is no harm in having him demonstrate for you the different stretch characteristics so you can discover what appeals to you.

Except for the expense! I feel like I’ve pretty much blown my piano maintenance budget at this point, I don’t know if he’ll charge another full tuning to come back but if so, I probably need to wait a while.

That’s another reason why it’s unfortunate that he doesn’t live in the same town. -_-