quote:

The Penn State scandal involved one coach and 14 boys.

And yet, Penn State still exists. And Penn State football still exists. Imagine that.

Plus, it's dead wrong to say that it was just one coach. Or have you not read about the coverups? Have you not heard that Joe Paterno (who is not Sandusky, and who is revered on the Penn State campus) was fired, even though he'd announced his intention to retire? Have you not read that criminal charges were filed against the former President of Penn State, the former Vice President, the former Athletic Director, the former Senior Vice President for Finance and Business, and other administrators? And that's totally separate from the fines and other penalties against the institution itself.

Yeah, just one coach. Sheesh.

You're kind of making my point for me. Penn State's transgressions resulted in all sorts of firings, fines, and criminal charges against more than just Joe Paterno.

The USA Gymnastics fallout? The creepy doctor is being charged for child sexual assault, and a few others might be investigated. That's it. No fines. No others being called to step down. Instead, we have cover-ups, crocodile tears, secrecy and nondisclosure agreements.

I don't think that decertifying the USA Gymnastics Federation is the same level as hypothetically closing Penn State's doors because of Paterno, or ending the freaking Navy because of Tailhook. I don't think you seriously do, either.

Interesting that you think that getting rid of it means, de facto, that it would be replaced with a "mirror organization." Do you feel the same way about removing Trump? If Trump were replaced by, say, Bernie Sanders, do you think the White House would be a mirror organization to Trump's WH? Of course not.

It is quite literally throwing out the baby with the bath water.

Fine by me, because this baby covered up pedophiles and refuses to get out of the tub.

Of course a new organization would replace the corrupt one. Gymnastics will still exist. The new organization will have new people who will likely understand they need better protocols to respond to sexual abuse.

quote:

Originally posted by Nina:
You're kind of making my point for me. Penn State's transgressions resulted in all sorts of firings, fines, and criminal charges against more than just Joe Paterno.

The USA Gymnastics fallout? The creepy doctor is being charged for child sexual assault, and a few others might be investigated. That's it. No fines. No others being called to step down. Instead, we have cover-ups, crocodile tears, secrecy and nondisclosure agreements.

Is that what we were talking about? I thought we were talking about some sort of nuclear option. Because I don't disagree with holding the individuals accountable.

quote:

I don't think that decertifying the USA Gymnastics Federation is the same level as hypothetically closing Penn State's doors because of Paterno, or ending the freaking Navy because of Tailhook. I don't think you seriously do, either.

We don't kill entire institutions because of individual scandals. I suppose there are examples where we have done so. Please cite them so we can compare.

quote:

Interesting that you think that getting rid of it means, de facto, that it would be replaced with a "mirror organization." Do you feel the same way about removing Trump? If Trump were replaced by, say, Bernie Sanders, do you think the White House would be a mirror organization to Trump's WH? Of course not.

Of course it would. Who takes office if Trump is forced out somehow? President Pence. Different style but the same awful fundamentals.

Again, you wouldn't be killing the institution of the White House if someone else is elected in 2020. You're actually making my point.

quote:

Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
It is quite literally throwing out the baby with the bath water.

Fine by me, because this baby covered up pedophiles and refuses to get out of the tub.

Of course a new organization would replace the corrupt one. Gymnastics will still exist. The new organization will have new people who will likely understand they need better protocols to respond to sexual abuse.

And exactly how is that different from a top-to-bottom reformation of USA Gymnastics?

It isn't. Again, it's form over substance. You're just looking for vengeance.

Vengeance is appropriate against the responsible individuals. We only kill off an organization entirely when it is not essential, and when other organizations can perform the same functions. Lehman and Drexel Burnham come to mind.

Can you point to a case where a governmental or non-profit in charge of an entire field was vaporized because of a scandal? I'd like to be able to compare and contrast, but none are coming to mind. And maybe, if you can't think of any, there's a reason you can't think of any.

I'd like to return to one point.

Cindy said earlier that "[t]he gymnastics scandal involves over 100 girls and *several* coaches". That makes it sounds as if several coaches were sexually abusing gymnasts.

Is that true?

As far as I know, there was one abuser (the doctor) and many involved in the cover-up. That, to me, sounds precisely like the Penn State scandal, although the number of athletes involved may be far greater. (Although I haven't seen precise numbers ... this Vox article says that some of the more-than-150 victims were dancers and volleyball players, but one presumes that USA Gymnastics wasn't responsible for the volleyball players, and I can't say about the dancers.)

Were coaches actively involved in abusing gymnasts? The Vox article is a lengthy report on all the allegations, and I didn't see anything suggesting that other gymnastics coaches involved anyone. If the role of the coaches was merely cover-up or failure to report or follow up on allegations, exactly how is that different from Penn State (other than a much larger number of victims)?

If my facts are correct, I wonder if Cindy's reaction may be correlated to the gender of the victims.

Vox also notes the following reformation, across all sports:

quote:

Abuse exists across Olympic sports. The US Olympic Committee has taken steps to address this, including opening the US Center for SafeSport, now an independent nonprofit, which oversees abuse reports and education and training for all 49 Olympic governing bodies.

Shellie Pfohl, the president and CEO for the Center for SafeSport, told Vox that one of their top priorities is to make sure those who come forward with abuse allegations aren’t retaliated against, and they are trying to foster a culture change that puts athletes’ safety first. “Protect athletes no matter what,” she said. “Their well-being is more important than making the team or earning a medal.”

That sounds to me very much like "better protocols to respond to sexual abuse."

The gymnastics scandal gives me the same sick, sad feeling as the brain injury issue in football and the commonplace early deaths of musicians and actors. We, as a culture and probably as a species, make a habit of chewing up our entertainers and spitting them out.

Yeah, they make big bucks and get a lot of glory, so people keep flocking to those professions, but the people orchestrating their careers make even more. You'd think that the managers, agents, coaches, owners, etc., etc., would treat the geese who lay the golden eggs more gently, but no. They seem to think there will always be more where they came from, and maybe there will be. And so we get the Dr. Nassars and the Harvey Weinsteins and the NFL folks and the various doctors who gave people like Elvis and Judy Garland and Marilyn Monroe all the drugs they needed to keep performing but none of the medical care they needed to live for very long.

I'm not innocent here. When I read about Tom Petty taking pain pills after performing on a frickin' broken hip, I thought about how much I enjoy seeing older performers who were important to me when I was younger. I was thrilled to see Paul McCartney this past summer, and I never gave a thought to what it must take for a 75-year-old man to do a big tour like that. (Granted, he looked, moved, and sounded like a much younger man, so much so that my sister said, "If that's what a vegan diet will do for you, I think we should consider it.")

I don't know what the answer is, but if I or a loved one was considering a career in entertainment, I would look for a manager with a demonstrated history of protecting clients.

I don't know.

I don't have time to refute Quirt's points one by one.

But of course there are examples of entire institutions being punished for one bad act or scandal. The first example that comes to mind is how an entire fraternity will be banished from campus for one hazing incident. I believe there have been a few examples of an entire sport being banned from a campus because of wrongdoing by a few athletes.

Yes, other coaches were reported to USA gymnastics and they covered it up. Perhaps someone will google this to move this along, but include Indianapolis Star in your search. That is the paper that broke the story.

Heads should roll.

They haven't.

That means the organization itself is toxic and needs to be decertified.

quote:

Originally posted by Mary Anna:

Yeah, they make big bucks and get a lot of glory, so people keep flocking to those professions, but the people orchestrating their careers make even more.

Part of the problem in gymnastics is that it has always had that creepy pubescent element to it. The girls perform in body-skimming clothing with their butt cheeks out. There is nothing wrong with that, maybe, but it skeeves some people out. The male gymnasts do not have their butt cheeks out, and most of them are adults. But we put the girls in sexualized costumes. Hmmm.

This, I think, is one reason why the Federation reacted to badly to these allegations. Once people start thinking your sport is tainted in some way, they turn away. Witness what happened to figure skating once they had that scandal with the Russian and Canadain skaters at the Olympics.

So the Federation starts thinking it is more important to protect the sport than to protect the athletes. Even if the victims are kids who cannot possibly protect themselves.

quote:

Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
I don't have time to refute Quirt's points one by one.

But of course there are examples of entire institutions being punished for one bad act or scandal. The first example that comes to mind is how an entire fraternity will be banished from campus for one hazing incident.

Fail. That's entirely distinguishable from USA Gymnastics, because an individual fraternity is only one of a larger group, and far more like Lehman or Drexel. You might get a little farther if you cited examples where an entire Greek system was booted from campus, but even that isn't the same thing, because nothing like-minded individuals may decide to rent a large house off-campus without putting some Greek letters on the front of the building. So, perhaps not as essential as an umbrella organization is to competing at an Olympic level.

quote:

I believe there have been a few examples of an entire sport being banned from a campus because of wrongdoing by a few athletes.

That won't get you there, but at least it's not as woefully inapposite.

quote:

Heads should roll.

They haven't.

Well, that wasn't what we were discussing, but I'm glad you've returned to more reasonable ground. I would be entirely in support of that.

quote:

That means the organization itself is toxic and needs to be decertified.

Logic fail! You have made utterly no argument as to why "heads should roll" leads to a conclusion that "the organization itself is toxic and needs to be decertified." Or, for that matter, why, even if we were to conclude that USA Gymnastics is a toxic organization, it cannot be reformed, and must instead be decertified.

Again, I wonder what role gender plays in your analysis. In the absence of logic, perhaps that's the determining factor.

I understand that you are too busy to Google, and therefore wish to delegate, but perhaps you might want to re-read about this important, subsequent reform:

quote:

Abuse exists across Olympic sports. The US Olympic Committee has taken steps to address this, including opening the US Center for SafeSport, now an independent nonprofit, which oversees abuse reports and education and training for all 49 Olympic governing bodies.

Shellie Pfohl, the president and CEO for the Center for SafeSport, told Vox that one of their top priorities is to make sure those who come forward with abuse allegations aren’t retaliated against, and they are trying to foster a culture change that puts athletes’ safety first. “Protect athletes no matter what,” she said. “Their well-being is more important than making the team or earning a medal.”

Aly Raisman calls out USA Gymnastics as "rotting from the inside", but she also calls out the US Olympic Committee. Should it be given the nuclear penalty, too?

https://www.thecut.com/2018/01...-usa-gymnastics.html

quote:

Originally posted by Cindysphinx:

quote:

Originally posted by Mary Anna:

Yeah, they make big bucks and get a lot of glory, so people keep flocking to those professions, but the people orchestrating their careers make even more.

Part of the problem in gymnastics is that it has always had that creepy pubescent element to it. The girls perform in body-skimming clothing with their butt cheeks out. There is nothing wrong with that, maybe, but it skeeves some people out. The male gymnasts do not have their butt cheeks out, and most of them are adults. But we put the girls in sexualized costumes. Hmmm.

This, I think, is one reason why the Federation reacted to badly to these allegations. Once people start thinking your sport is tainted in some way, they turn away. Witness what happened to figure skating once they had that scandal with the Russian and Canadain skaters at the Olympics.

So the Federation starts thinking it is more important to protect the sport than to protect the athletes. Even if the victims are kids who cannot possibly protect themselves.

Yep. Whether the Federation that should go or whether the organization should stay intact while most of its personnel is axed is not actually the point that interests me.

I'm interested in seeing strong action taken to protect the children who are earning the paychecks of all those other people. Maybe that involves abolishing and replacing the organization, or maybe it involves axing and replacing nearly everyone it employs. The problem is their replacements will almost certainly include people who are part of the gymnastics world and these are not people who will be inclined to ask, "Do their butt cheeks really need to be hanging out there? How about we get some bodysuits on those young women?"

I mean, really. I can hear people yelping about how more covered-up costumes will hamper their movement, but how about those long sleeves? They don't need to move their arms?

Gymnastics also troubles me because, like ballet and wrestling and some other things, there is an incentive to starve yourself (or be starved by your coach). That's not good for anybody, but young women who maintain a gymnast's weight don't menstruate. Their bones suffer. And heaven knows what the mental health consequences are when you throw someone's hormones into that kind of turmoil. Those girls' parents decide for them that this is okay, because they're not old enough to decide for themselves, and I'm not sure that parents with visions of fame, glory, and lucrative endorsements always use their best judgment.

I say all this as someone who enjoys watching gymnastics and is thus complicit in some way, not unlike opera lovers who enjoyed the singing of castrati until it became unacceptable to treat even willing young people like that.

Normally you don't have to decertify the organization. Here, the head of the organization has overstayed his term and has run it for 19 years.

These people are not leaving. If the organization cannot clean house, then the organization has to go.

Either you decertify, or you do nothing.

I don't care what committees they have formed and policies they have adopted now. You don't get too screw up like this and violate mandatory reporting laws and keep your job.