If a White Kid Wants to Go to Harvard ...

04 October 2019, 07:06 PM

After a quick read of your article (well, the one you posted, not your article), my first thought was that I need to read it again, more slowly.

My second thought was that you always seem to find research articles that I know nothing about, and are always interesting. I really should broaden my reading to include more economic journals.

04 October 2019, 07:31 PM

piqué

quote:
. Not all black students admitted under "affirmative action" in the 1970s were "unqualified." Especially if "qualified" means "could succeed." Yes, of course, some students admitted under affirmative action did not succeed in the hothouse environment of elite institutions. Many succeeded just fine, i.e. got a degree from an institution whose average "white kid" might have had higher SAT scores.

This in no way contradicts anything I wrote.

04 October 2019, 07:49 PM

piqué

quote:

Affirmative Action and the Quality-Fit Tradeoff

I know I'm a real downer by always pointing people to genuine social science literature written by some of the best social scientists in the US today, but ... there it is. Sorry ... Big Grin

I'm about half way through this extremely interesting paper--thanks for sharing it. But I'm already seeing that it comes right out and says that colleges that accept minority students to meet racial quotas even though those students are a mismatch with the institution are actually harming those students, who would be better off at a school that better fits their level of preparation.

Did you read the study you linked to?

04 October 2019, 08:04 PM

QuirtEvans

That is absolutely NOT what it says.

Let's try quoting, shall we?

quote:
This suggests that mild racial preferences will have a positive impact on
minority outcomes. The issue is whether racial preferences in their current form are so strong that mismatch effects may arise. At more selective undergraduate schools and among virtually all law schools, affirmative action is practiced extensively, particularly for African Americans, and leads to substantial differences in the academic backgrounds of minority and majority students.

* * * *

As we argue throughout this paper, the net impact of racial preferences come down to whether the strength of the overall college quality effect is larger or smaller than any match effects.

* * * *

The evidence suggests that racial preferences are so aggressive that reshuffling some African American students to less-selective schools would improve some outcomes due to match effects dominating quality effects. The existing evidence indicates that such match effects may be particularly relevant for first-time bar passage and among undergraduates majoring in STEM fields. However, shifting minority undergraduates to low-resource non-selective schools ultimately may undo any gains from higher match quality, and shifting minorities out of law schools altogether could lead to worse labor market outcomes among these students than had they been admitted to some law school. Alternatively, schools that wish to practice extensive affirmative action could provide targeted services to these students in order to overcome any mismatch induced by their admission policies, such as offering tutoring and remedial classes. While the evidence on targeted college services is scant, it is plausible such interventions could be successful in mitigating any negative match effects.

[bolding mine, because it suggests exactly what I said above]

And there's one further argument, raised by my lovely spouse. Perhaps, just perhaps, kids wind up being more prepared for college (or for more selective colleges) if their parents are college graduates (or graduates of more selective colleges). If underprivileged minority kids are never admitted to colleges, or to more selective colleges, perhaps their kids won't be as prepared for colleges, or for more selective colleges, and their kids' kids, and so forth. So, perhaps, just perhaps, the only way to break the cycle is to use affirmative action to let in kids with lower credentials and help them through ... so that, in future generations, there will be a level playing field.

04 October 2019, 08:59 PM

Piano*Dad

quote:
This issue isn't simple and straightforward.

Match effect ... resource effect.

04 October 2019, 09:07 PM

piqué

Quirt your quotes are cherry picked, and I can do the same but did not because one or two selective quotes arent the totality. And if you are honest you will acknowledge that there is agreement in the paper with what i wrote.

You've had a knee-jerk reaction that because I think 1970s era affirmative action hurt some students in some situations that therefore i dont believe in affirmative action or in giving a leg up to people who have suffered discrimination. I said no such thing and i see it's more important to you to argue than to actually carefully read and think about what I actually did write.

04 October 2019, 10:02 PM

QuirtEvans

quote:
Originally posted by piqué:
Quirt your quotes are cherry picked, and I can do the same but did not because one or two selective quotes arent the totality. And if you are honest you will acknowledge that there is agreement in the paper with what i wrote.

You've had a knee-jerk reaction that because I think 1970s era affirmative action hurt some students in some situations that therefore i dont believe in affirmative action or in giving a leg up to people who have suffered discrimination. I said no such thing and i see it's more important to you to argue than to actually carefully read and think about what I actually did write.

Don't be absurd. It's unworthy. Yeah, my quotes were selected ... from the conclusion. And I want to stress that I also picked quotes that did not go along with what I thought before I read the article. To wit:

quote:
The existing evidence indicates that such match effects may be particularly relevant for first-time bar passage and among undergraduates majoring in STEM fields.

You are free to ignore the parts that I quoted that did not fit my preconceptions, but it just makes you look biased.

I understand that it may be unthinkable, but just maybe you were partially wrong. Gasp.

05 October 2019, 09:32 AM

Axtremus

Well, this story has got Harvard and an Asian student in it.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/h...rs-later-as-student/

Harvard student who visited campus as a 3-year-old recreates photo with campus police officer

Most likely something like this happened in other institutions of higher learnings, but this one went viral and made the news.

05 October 2019, 01:26 PM

jon-nyc

quote:
Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
I think your information might be out of date. I’m unaware of any evidence that minority students at elite universities are in over their heads.

There’s plenty, though interpretations vary and are controversial. Google ‘mismatch theory’.

05 October 2019, 05:49 PM

Amanda

quote:
Originally posted by jon-nyc:
quote:
Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
I think your information might be out of date. I’m unaware of any evidence that minority students at elite universities are in over their heads.

There’s plenty, though interpretations vary and are controversial. Google ‘mismatch theory’.

Not by any means just minority but by economic class and family background, if anything more than by ethnic/racial minority.

The NYT and Atlantic have published many articles about these sad instances of well-meant admissions to students who were unable to take advantage of their "first generation" educational opportunities.

Consider among other things that their families may be undercutting their achievement, for one by giving the students the message that their time would be better spent earning money to help their families.

Here's a single example among many. (Not the article I was most looking for - about a small, high achievement cohort of disadvantaged girls from a Georgia high school. Most were admitted to Emory, I think.)

I was a low-income student; grades weren't the hard part

Only grades are too! And they are so often left to flounder, not knowing what helping resources exist. (In sharp contrast to kids from affluent backgrounds who are trained to seek out special aid much like HS kids whose parents arrange for them to get longer test taking times. As one "for instance".)

05 October 2019, 09:11 PM

Axtremus

Amanda, thanks for the link you provided: https://www.nytimes.com/intera...lege-inequality.html

At school I knew a few students who never seemed able to “relax” much less to “have fun;” they were always working a lot, always frugal, always tight with money. I did not understand them at the time. I think this article describes parallels for many of them.