I've been reading about the sentencing of the Crumbleys, the Michigan parents of a disturbed 15 year old, Ethan Crumbley, who shot up and killed four of his classmates after his parents refused to take him out of school, at the request of the school's administration, who found a drawing he did pleading for help and showing a gun and a bleeding victim.

I can't find anything in the press that persuades me that 15 years in prison because your 15 year old killed his classmates is justice.

Yes, they bought their son a gun. So do lots of parents buy their children guns.

Yes, they decided to go back to work and leave their son in school after the school called them in to take him home. If the school believed the son was a danger, why didn't they search his backpack--where the gun was--and why did they allow him to go back to class?

The parents didn't believe their son had a problem--but, they are parents, not psychologists.

What others saw as red flags, they didn't think were cause for concern.

Is that a crime?

It seems like the community was out for vengeance and someone had to take the fall. It wasn't enough that a 15 year old was tried as an adult and sentenced to life in prison without possibility of parole. Why isn't he in a mental institution instead of prison?

And if he was tried as an adult, how could his parents be considered responsible?

Anyone here able to make better sense of this?

It's most disturbing and very sad. A reflection on life in America.

I can't find anything in the press that persuades me that 15 years in prison because your 15 year old killed his classmates is justice.

What is justice? I think that American's ideas of justice tend to be vengeful. (No, not intended to be a blanket statement, just tends to be.) Compare to some Scandinavian countries.

Yes, they bought their son a gun. So do lots of parents buy their children guns.

I did not follow this case closely but from what I gather the parents were aware that their son was having mental issues. I would think alarm bells would have gone off, but on the other hand, we're steeped in gun culture. People barely give it a second thought. So I don't know.

Yes, they decided to go back to work and leave their son in school after the school called them in to take him home. If the school believed the son was a danger, why didn't they search his backpack--where the gun was--and why did they allow him to go back to class?

I do wonder why the school was not more pro-active when they discovered his disturbing drawing. On the other hand, why would they assume he was in possession of a gun?

The parents didn't believe their son had a problem--but, they are parents, not psychologists.

I don't think that's correct. I think they knew he was having difficulties. It does seem, from the little I've read about it, they were very unawares parents (deliberately or not).

What others saw as red flags, they didn't think were cause for concern.

Gun culture.

Is that a crime?

A crime was most definitely committed. Four very young people died. Several were injured. Who's responsible? My philosophical side says we are all responsible. Responsible for gun culture, for the difficulty and expense in obtaining mental healthcare, for the pressures of daily life in this country, for the fact that some people are in the dark about very important issues, for the fact that many people seem to live in ignorance. Whose fault is that? (It doesn't really matter whose fault it is. But it is our, or someone's, responsibility.)


It's a sad case all around. The teenager knew he was having mental issues. The parents were oblivious (I do wonder how they could have been so oblivious? Ignorance? Denial? That's not far fetched.). The school was unaware of facts (from what I gather) that could have changed the course of events.

It seems to me that both the boy and the parents need help.

What's for sure is that something had to be done in the name of "justice". I don't agree with the life without parole for the boy. The parents may get early release for good behavior but I'm not sure prison is the best place to get the help they need. But maybe they will get it.

quote:

I do wonder why the school was not more pro-active when they discovered his disturbing drawing. On the other hand, why would they assume he was in possession of a gun?

Maybe because the drawing that alarmed them was a drawing of a gun shooting someone?

Also, in this day and age, why isn't security at schools either using metal detectors or searching backpacks?

If the parents can be incarcerated for this, then why isn't the school held responsible? Why is the NRA held responsible? Why arent the congresscritters who refuse to enact gun control laws thrown in jail?

I have zero problem with jailing the parents. Until irresponsible gun owners start getting held responsible for crimes committed with guns they bought and then failed to store securely, crap like this is going to continue to happen and innocent people are the ones who pay the price.

Your toddler finds your gun in your purse and shoots himself? You go to jail. Your kid finds your gun under the sofa and shoots you? You go to jail. You give your mentally ill kid a gun for Christmas and he shoots up his school? You absolutely, no doubt about it, do not pass go on the way there, go to jail.

I say this as a parent whose child had some pretty serious mental health struggles in middle and early high school (she ended up hospitalized for a few weeks at the end of sophomore year). Yes, the kids try to hide it and yes it is insanely hard to get in with a qualified mental health professional even when you are desperately seeking help. But if you are even slightly remotely paying attention to your kid, it's easy to tell that something is wrong -- you do not have to be a psychologist to recognize when your kid is struggling with something. And the absolute LAST thing I ever would have done during that time was buy my kid a FREAKING GUN. Hell, there was a period of time when we ended up locking up everything in my house that was even remotely sharp (including all of the nail clippers, nail files, etc.) -- try living without access to scissors and silverware for a few months. Not fun, but IMO, that's the least a parent can do to keep their kid safe.

These parents were idiots. That kid would not legally have been able to buy a gun on his own, the parents enabled it, and they need to take responsibility for it. It's no different than parents who provide alcohol for their minor child who then goes out and kills someone driving drunk. The parents should absolutely be held legally liable for that death.

And added bonus: by serving as an example for other idiot parents, hopefully the next family will think twice before buying their mentally unstable teen a gun.

Oh, and as far as metal detectors, I do have some thoughts on that. Our high school has 2000 kids. Every day those kids are coming to school with not just backpacks but lunch bags, musical instruments (which are metal, in big non-see-through cases), sports equipment in bags etc. All of that stuff would need to be scanned and things like baseball bats in bags and saxophones in cases would need to be additionally hand searched because for sure they'd set off the metal detectors. Kids would need to show up at school at 5am to get through security by 7. Heck, I just went to a concert the other night that had a professional security staff and 6 or 7 bag search lines with metal detectors at the entrance. The venue seated 5000ish people so about twice as many as an average high school. We arrived at 6 for a 7pm show and the line was already wrapped around the building. They ended up delaying the concert start til 8 so they could get everyone through security. And that was with 7 metal detectors and a full staff of security to search everyone. The typical school district can't afford a setup like that - you'd be lucky to have 2 guards and one detector which simply won't work for 2000 kids. Unfortunately there is simply no way to run every school kid through airport/concert level security check in a fast enough fashion to make it practical in any way shape or form. It cannot be the responsibility of the school to make sure kids aren't bringing guns in from home -- that HAS to start with the parents.

And one more thing.....I think the reason these particular parents went to jail is that they were just godawful human beings. Their statements to the police after the shooting were absolutely jaw-dropping. Believe me, having been down that road, I know how hard it is to find decent mental health treatment for a teenager who is struggling....insurance hurdles, lack of providers, "the next new patient appointment is in 7 months" -- I get it. And even when you are in with a good doctor and on a treatment plan, it doesn't work overnight (and sometimes doesn't work at all.) I get all of that and I think juries do too.

I think if these people had been decent parents who were trying their best to get their kid some help and if the kid had obtained the gun in some other way behind the parents' backs they would not be held liable in the same way. But really -- look at some of their statements and their testimony and the way they behaved both before and after the shooting. They seem like absolutely awful people who bear a lot of responsibilty for what their son did and I'm sure that's the reason why the jury found as they did.

I think Lisa's take on this case is spot-on. Parents have a reasonable duty of care that these parents did not meet.

That can be particularly true with firearms because the potential consequences of misuse or even carelessness can be so dire. I am aware of a femily in my own area who gave one of their children a rifle for Christmas. From what I heard, it was a single shot 22 caliber rifle, which is the sort of gun I learned to shoot with and about as safe a firearm as exists. That Christmas morning, that gun fired a bullet that left one of the family's children permanently paralyzed.

I know another family where the son got his father's pistol out of its storage location while he and his sister (both teenagers) were home alone. He committed suicide with that gun and the bullet went through the ceiling where he was and nearly struck his sister in a room above.

I grew up in a generally rural area and I think I understand valid reasons to own and use a firearm, but care and respect for the deadly force they inherently include demands responsibility for every owner and possessor of these weapons.

Big Al

I think the sentences for the parents is best understood as a wake-up call to other parents who have involvement with disturbed children and guns.

I'm not losing any sleep over this case being some slippery slope toward dragging parents into jail for every crime their children commit. In this particular case, with this set of facts, I think the parents behavior was criminal. Ditto for parents who do not secure firearms and whose children use these unsecured weapons in a violent crime.

I’m with Lisa on this.

Also, logistics aside, I don’t think normalizing having to search students before they can go to school is the right path to go down. In Ontario, a school can only search a student’s backpack if they can justify that there were specific circumstances that the search was necessary. We can search desks and lockers as those things don’t have a reasonable expectation of privacy. But backpacks do. So making every child subject themselves to a search before entering school would violate that privacy.

well, the reason i started the thread and asked the question is because there isn't any info on what the parents said, did, etc before or during the trial, that I could find. Lisa, I'll take your word for it that it was awful, but I didn't see it. If anyone has links to stories that make clearer how the parents were deserving of this sentence, I'd like to see it.

Dol, as to right to privacy, I worked in a federal building and could not enter without being screened and searched. Not to mention what you have to go through to board an airplane. For that matter, I've never crossed the Canadian border without being searched.

I will add that the parents fled with $6000 in the pockets and went into hiding. When their son needed his parents more than ever.

They knew one key thing the school didn’t know: that they bought the kid a gun and didn’t secure it. The gun safe lock combo was the manufacturer preset of 000.

Wow. Didn't know any of this. Incredibly egregious.

Well, after reading this thread, and watching the mother in court say, "I know that we did our best."-- my sympathy level is zero.

Interestingly enough, we've had two mass shootings in Tampa's Ybor City neighborhood (historic Cuban neighborhood whose main business has been entertainment for decades) recently whereas I remember none in the four years I've been here or in the old days.

If you really want to be appalled, have a read:

https://nymag.com/intelligence...rumbley-parents.html

Or this:
https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/24...t-parents/index.html

Love how the mom retained an attorney for her and her husband but not her son and told a co-worker "her son’s destiny is done and she has to take care of herself". That's after the parents were caught fleeing with $6600 in cash -- some of which came from emptying their son's bank account -- and 4 burner phones.

That poor kid seemed like he was desperately trying to get his parents to take him to therapy -- heck, just to get them to pay attention to him -- for a long time prior to the shooting. Then when he finally does something that gets their f-ing attention, they run for the hills and leave him out to hang.

Yeah.....they need to rot. I honestly don't think they were sentenced for long enough.