Saw a back kitchen picture. The kitchen was called a
waterfall kitchen. "back" doesn't have the appeal of a waterfall in the second kitchen, does it?
Be certain that when you remodel to install a waterfall to avoid having a "back" kitchen.

Don't forget to add a half bath.
Guest listening to the waterfall will need it.

This seems like the natural ending of the fifty-plus year trend of opening the kitchen up more and more and more until, honestly, in new-build houses, it's just a collection of cabinets and appliances at the end of the living room, with no walls whatsoever. It looks beautiful until you use it, and then you and your guests can't escape it.

(This is not particularly a get-off-my-lawn dislike of modern trends, as I grew up in a house built in 1963 with a kitchen open to the den. However, the house also had a separate living room where you could take guests when you wanted a little visual peace. And I like visual peace.)

I also don't really like my guests poking around when I'm trying to toss a salad without burning the lasagna. Y'all, just go eat the snacks I put out for you and I'll be back in a minute.

But what do I know? I've never had the opportunity to do that because builders think space that's meant to be utilitarian should be on display. I suppose this strategy has come to fruition, with this article telling us we should sink major, major bucks into top-of-the-line appliances that will convey to our guests the notion that we are rich, and then build a second kitchen that we actually use.

Since our current cats absolutely will not leave me or the food alone while I'm trying to cook, I would kill for a kitchen door.

Hi, MA. Yes, this seems like a natural (unnatural?) development in the open-plan universe.

Our kitchen was once had doors on it, but they were gone before we moved in. When we were cat-sitting for my daughter the cat was watching me the whole time I was cooking. We called him my sous-chef. Everything had to be covered when cooked!

The house is from 1885, so that room used to be either a dining room or second parlor. The REAL kitchen was in the basement (there is an old hearth there) and a dumbwaiter was used to bring the food up to the main floor. Made sense when the fuel (wood, coal) had to brought in from ground level.

Never understood the appeal of the lack of privacy in the open floor plan. Except for a bedroom or bathroom, there's no respite from whatever the rest of the family is doing.

Our house (late 50s vintage) has a kitchen walled off from the living room-dining room which is one larger ell-shaped space. The kitchen has a sliding door between it and the dining room, which we never close and had a pair of swinging saloon-style doors between the kitchen and the entry hall. We thought those were simply annoying and removed them after we moved into the house. I'm pretty happy with that arrangement, although we would like a larger kitchen, primarily to have more counter space for food prep and more cabinet storage space for food and kitchen hardware. As it is, we keep some food on shelves downstairs near the garage and bring it up as needed and keep seldom used pots and pans like big stock pots and the turkey roaster, and items like the pressure canner, large electric griddle, and large coffee maker for parties downstairs on shelves in the laundry room as well.

We've never had problems with the dishwasher failing to clean the dishes and we don't run it until it's relatively full. Our present dishwasher is a mid-range Whirlpool machine. We use Cascade liquid dishwasher detergent and Finish as a rinse agent and just push loose food scraps off dishes before putting them in the dishwasher. We run the tap at the sink until the water is hot before starting the machine and tend to run it at night. We load it in the manner that the machine instructions say to do it. The only time I see anything not completely clean is when two utensils like spoons get nested closely together, which shows up when sorting them as they go back in the drawer. Usually, that doesn't happen because we spread similar items among the various compartments in the silverware bin as well as place things like spoons alternately up and down. Pots and pans along with large serving pieces and delicate china and glassware get washed by hand in the sink.

YMMV.

Big Al

quote:

Originally posted by RealPlayer:

Never understood the appeal of the lack of privacy in the open floor plan. Except for a bedroom or bathroom, there's no respite from whatever the rest of the family is doing.

Amen.

My parents' house upstate c. 1973 is what you are describing.

There was no real separation between the kitchen, dining room, and living room.

It worked ok when there were three of us. It didn't work ok by the time there were five of us.

quote:

Originally posted by RealPlayer:
Hi, MA. Yes, this seems like a natural (unnatural?) development in the open-plan universe.

Our kitchen was once had doors on it, but they were gone before we moved in. When we were cat-sitting for my daughter the cat was watching me the whole time I was cooking. We called him my sous-chef. Everything had to be covered when cooked!

The house is from 1885, so that room used to be either a dining room or second parlor. The REAL kitchen was in the basement (there is an old hearth there) and a dumbwaiter was used to bring the food up to the main floor. Made sense when the fuel (wood, coal) had to brought in from ground level.

Never understood the appeal of the lack of privacy in the open floor plan. Except for a bedroom or bathroom, there's no respite from whatever the rest of the family is doing.

Sounds like a lovely home you have.

When we were selling our London house which we'd made open-plan to create a larger living/dining/kitchen/conservatory space, we got pretty consistent feedback. The folk viewing who liked it did so either for keeping an eye on a young family, or for having large parties (other selling points being the four bedrooms and a good sized garden)
Your point about respite is well understood.

My last house which was a nice sized Victorian had some overflow kitchen in the basement - i.e. a double oven, second refrigerator and full sized freezer. With holidays - it was possible to cook the big bird in the basement oven while keeping the upstairs kitchen for the rest of the meal. It worked out well. A bonus was we weren't overheating the kitchen.

quote:

We've never had problems with the dishwasher failing to clean the dishes and we don't run it until it's relatively full. Our present dishwasher is a mid-range Whirlpool machine. We use Cascade liquid dishwasher detergent and Finish as a rinse agent and just push loose food scraps off dishes before putting them in the dishwasher. We run the tap at the sink until the water is hot before starting the machine and tend to run it at night.

Since moving here I’ve figured out that it’s all about the water. We had a hard time getting dishes clean using the rock hard water in CA but here it’s not a problem - if it fits it comes out clean. No rinse agent required, no pre washing. 5 year old middling quality Whirlpool gets the job done.

And the shower door doesn’t spot either.

Here it is common in Portuguese family homes to have a second kitchen in the basement. They use the upstairs kitchen for day to day cooking and the basement kitchen is used alongside the main kitchen for canning, cooking for large gatherings, etc.

The idea of having a second “show” kitchen is ridiculous to me. Too much money indeed.

This reminds me, my Italian grandma had a second kitchen in her basement (which was a walkout, so very bright and airy for a basement). In her regular kitchen on the main floor, which was quite small, she had a regular oven, sink, fridge, not a lot of counter space, and a little breakfast table that could just barely accommodate three people.

In the basement, she had a massive table, maybe it was even two tables pushed together? I don't remember ever seeing the actual table because it was always covered with one of those table cloths that is like plastic-y on top so you can wipe it down with a wet rag.

She also had a much larger oven, a fridge, a bigger sink, all kinds of cooking gadgets down there. Multiple pizzelle irons (not the electric kind!), one of which I now have.

She was always making something, pasta noodles from scratch, bread, cookies, sausage, sauce, Easter pizza, pizzelle ... If there was a fundraising activity at her church, she would say "well I'm in charge of the sauce" -- that meant she was making enough pasta sauce to feed 150 people. If someone was getting married, she would say "well I'll make a few cookies to take" and that meant she was making multiple batches of probably five different kinds of Italian wedding cookies, enough for a party with 100 guests, plus for people to take home.

If she was making bread, she would often braid it, and take the dough that she tore off and fry it a big pot, we called it fried dough (original, I know). Sometimes she would put anchovies or pepperoni in the dough before frying it, then we could have that for lunch. Other times, nothing in the dough, but when it came out, she'd roll it in powdered sugar and that was a dessert (like a cake donut??)

She had a vegetable garden with tomatoes, zucchini, hot peppers and who knows what else. She would make her own giambotta and jar it, everyone got some to take home. So often there was a canning (jarring?) operation in progress in there. We got help whenever we visited, making the pasta (either cranking the pasta machine, or using our thumbs to make little shells etc.) .....

Sorry, I didn't mean to go on! (and apologies if I've written about this before! I have so many memories of that kitchen in the basement!

Anyway, my point is, she had that second kitchen because her main floor kitchen was so small, and she was just this amazing cook. The basement kitchen was about as utilitarian as it could be. No frills, but had everything she needed.

Sigh.
Now I'm feeling wistful, and hungry!!

quote:

The idea of having a second “show” kitchen is ridiculous to me.

Exactly. Pretty much the exact opposite of how my Grandma treated her kitchens. My other Grandmother also cooked and baked a lot, both of them would have just shaken their heads at these over the top kitchens, all white and chrome that look like they're never used!

OT maybe, but Kim’s wedding included an obligatory cookie exchange table. People brought dozens and dozens of cookies and by the time the reception was over they were all gone.

It’s a thing. Who knew?

If it makes anyone feel better, these huge stucco (brick?) house piles are their own little cottage industries. They keep dozens of trades busy year round, not unlike castles where the entire economy of the town revolved around maintaining the castle and the people who lived there.

Two kitchens? Three? Wine cellar, theater, folly? Bowling alley?

Yes, yes of course, milady. We’ll get right on it.