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About those boosters and vaccines
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Has Achieved Nirvana
Picture of wtg
posted
I'm not so sure about this...

quote:
The U.S. Food and Drug Administration is using a controversial strategy to evaluate the next generation of COVID-19 boosters.

The approach is stirring debate as the agency works to make new, hopefully improved, boosters available in September to help prevent severe disease and save lives in the fall and winter.

For the first time, the FDA is planning to base its decision about whether to authorize new boosters on studies involving mice instead of humans.

"For the FDA to rely on mouse data is just bizarre, in my opinion," says John Moore, an immunologist at Weill Cornell Medicine in New York. "Mouse data are not going to be predictive in any way of what you would see in humans."

But others defend the approach, arguing that the country has had enough experience with the vaccines at this point to be confident the shots are safe and that there's not enough time to wait for data from human studies.

"We have 500 people a day dying of coronavirus right now. Those numbers sadly might very well rise in the fall and the winter. The question is: 'Can we do something better?'" says Dr. Ofer Levy, a pediatrics and infectious disease researcher at Harvard Medical School who also advises the FDA. "And I think the answer is: 'We can, by implementing this approach.'"


https://www.npr.org/sections/h...g-new-covid-boosters

Whenever a mouse-based study is reported in the news, my friend the researcher says "they should have used rats." Her take is that mice are not a good proxy for human trials and that rat trials are much better.

I sent her the article.


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We are all visitors to this time, this place. We are just passing through. Our purpose here is to observe, to learn, to grow, to love… and then we return home. - Australian Aboriginal proverb

Bazootiehead-in-training



 
Posts: 37941 | Location: Somewhere in the middle | Registered: 19 January 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Has Achieved Nirvana
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Looking for a universal COVID vaccine.

https://www.bbc.com/future/art...iversal-covid-19-jab


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We are all visitors to this time, this place. We are just passing through. Our purpose here is to observe, to learn, to grow, to love… and then we return home. - Australian Aboriginal proverb

Bazootiehead-in-training



 
Posts: 37941 | Location: Somewhere in the middle | Registered: 19 January 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
(self-titled) semi-posting lurker
Minor Deity
Picture of ShiroKuro
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Please report back about your friend's reaction to the use of mice rather than rats.

I was hoping there would be a new shot in Sept, but if it hasn't been tested on humans, that makes me feel very hesitant!


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My piano recordings at Box.Net: https://app.box.com/s/j4rgyhn72uvluemg1m6u

 
Posts: 18524 | Location: not in Japan any more | Registered: 20 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Shut up and play your guitar!
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Fools. The anti-vaxers will definitely jump on this and who would blame them?
 
Posts: 13634 | Location: Wisconsin | Registered: 20 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
"I've got morons on my team."

Mitt Romney
Minor Deity
Picture of Piano*Dad
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Just speaking with two physicians over breakfast ...

The mouse may be a fine proxy for this kind of testing. That rat may be better for certain tests and conditions, but the mouse may be fine, or better, for this specific use. In other words, one animal model may not dominate over all uses.

I don't really care about anti-vaxers and their beliefs/attitudes. They're not part of the equation. There is some political risk here, but if the researchers can demonstrate the validity of animal models over human models, it is certainly the way to go. You can get a 200,000 sample size very quickly, and without subjecting real humans to being "controls" who don't get the potentially life-saving "treatment" and suffer excess mortality and morbidity as a result.
 
Posts: 12539 | Location: Williamsburg, VA | Registered: 19 July 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Shut up and play your guitar!
Minor Deity
Picture of markj
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They should not be "part of the equation" in any sense. I am just saying that they will probably turn it into an outrage topic.
 
Posts: 13634 | Location: Wisconsin | Registered: 20 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Has Achieved Nirvana
Picture of wtg
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It seems like this is getting some pushback from the medical community. See the comments in the article by several people in the field, including some who advise the FDA.

My friend is the objective scientist type, teaches at a medical school, and interacts with people who have quality info about this kind of stuff. If she responds to my email (she's been super busy lately) I'll post her comments here.


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We are all visitors to this time, this place. We are just passing through. Our purpose here is to observe, to learn, to grow, to love… and then we return home. - Australian Aboriginal proverb

Bazootiehead-in-training



 
Posts: 37941 | Location: Somewhere in the middle | Registered: 19 January 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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They are still at the "EUA" stage of clearance. They'll never get their act together.
 
Posts: 24724 | Registered: 31 March 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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From my friend:

quote:
The mouse question is a sticky one. On one hand, if the FDA is going to demand clinical trials for every tweak of the vaccine, the virus will have changed enough by the time the vaccine is approved to make the effort untenable. We don't do this with the flu vaccine (which may not be a good argument but I don't know enough about it to say). On the other hand, mice are less like people than rats are in important ways, and pre-clinical studies with mice have failed (showed effect in mice, not in humans). I don't know why people insist on using mice, except that they are smaller than rats, eat less and have huge litters frequently. So they're cheaper.


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We are all visitors to this time, this place. We are just passing through. Our purpose here is to observe, to learn, to grow, to love… and then we return home. - Australian Aboriginal proverb

Bazootiehead-in-training



 
Posts: 37941 | Location: Somewhere in the middle | Registered: 19 January 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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And in the general COVID FWIW department...she recently took a trip to the UK for a conference. She's double vaxxed, double boosted, has been masking and being careful, all because she's concerned about long COVID.

quote:
I'm OK, thanks. I went to a meeting in Liverpool and took a few extra days to visit Wales, do Beatles stuff, spend time with friends I hadn't seen in 3 years. Just what I needed. I was losing my mind with so much isolation. I've attached a few pics - the really scenic ones are from Wales.

In case you're wondering, I never stopped masking or taking other precautions such as eating outdoors, even though the UK has a very low rate of transmission now, partially due to its 91% vaccination rate. I did attend a banquet in a large room full of vaccinated people - that was my one risky behavior. However, the day after I returned I got a text from the (state) dept of health saying that my cell phone had been next to some infected person's cell phone for more than 15 min. That info could only have come from another American's cell phone. Two days later I tested positive for COVID. So, I'm pretty sure that my exposure came from someone on the plane, as we were all crammed together for 7 hours and I was the only one I saw wearing a mask, which I removed to eat. I went on antivirals, had flu-like symptoms for 3 days, and no longer tested positive a week after my first positive test (I had been testing myself everyday since my return, realizing that simply travelling was a risk factor.)


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We are all visitors to this time, this place. We are just passing through. Our purpose here is to observe, to learn, to grow, to love… and then we return home. - Australian Aboriginal proverb

Bazootiehead-in-training



 
Posts: 37941 | Location: Somewhere in the middle | Registered: 19 January 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
In case you're wondering, I never stopped masking or taking other precautions such as eating outdoors, even though the UK has a very low rate of transmission now, partially due to its 91% vaccination rate. I did attend a banquet in a large room full of vaccinated people - that was my one risky behavior. However, the day after I returned I got a text from the (state) dept of health saying that my cell phone had been next to some infected person's cell phone for more than 15 min. That info could only have come from another American's cell phone. Two days later I tested positive for COVID. So, I'm pretty sure that my exposure came from someone on the plane, as we were all crammed together for 7 hours and I was the only one I saw wearing a mask, which I removed to eat.


Frowner

I'm definitely going to keep masking in public, while teaching, etc.

But next week I'm also going to go back to working in my campus office every day instead of working from home and only going to campus to teach my classes and then return home right away. So I'm a little worried about trying to be masked all the time, but not mask when I'm alone in my office... Oh and we have a dept. meeting and a college-level meeting in-person next week as well. I'm planning to be masked, but I will probably be one of the few. Let's see how awkward it is. And like your friend's plane ride, between those two meetings, I'll be in a room with 100+ people for probably a total of 5-6 hours altogether on Tuesday. Yay.

Also, we have been invited to a cousin's wedding (in Oct., they are inviting maybe 250 ish people, invites say nothing about vaxxing or masking etc.) I am about 90% certain I'm going to say we're not going.

We can't keep doing this forever... But I can keep doing it for a little while longer... At least that's what I tell myself.


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My piano recordings at Box.Net: https://app.box.com/s/j4rgyhn72uvluemg1m6u

 
Posts: 18524 | Location: not in Japan any more | Registered: 20 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Has Achieved Nirvana
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Pretty interesting stuff about vaccines and immunity...reader mode works with WaPo articles, but if you can't get to it, let me know and I'll post it as a gift link.

It's longish but I think definitely worth reading.

quote:
In the beginning, when the coronavirus was new, the quest for a vaccine was simple. Everyone started out susceptible to the virus. Shots brought spectacular protection.

But the next chapters of life with the virus — and the choice of booster shots for the fall and beyond — will be complicated by the layers of immunity that now ripple through the population, laid down by past infections and vaccinations.

When it comes to viral infections, past is prologue: The version of a virus to which we’re first exposed can dictate how we respond to later variants and, maybe, how well vaccines work.

It’s a phenomenon known by the forbidding name of original antigenic sin, and, in the case of the coronavirus, it prompts a constellation of questions. Are our immune systems stuck still revving up defenses against a version of the virus that has vanished? Will updated booster shots that are designed to thwart variants be much better than the original vaccine? How often will we be reinfected? Is there a better way to broaden immunity?

The answers to those questions will influence our long-term relationship with the coronavirus — and the health of millions of people. But more than two years into the pandemic, the quest to unravel these riddles underscores the seemingly unending complexity of the battle against a new pathogen.


https://www.washingtonpost.com...e-response-boosters/


--------------------------------
We are all visitors to this time, this place. We are just passing through. Our purpose here is to observe, to learn, to grow, to love… and then we return home. - Australian Aboriginal proverb

Bazootiehead-in-training



 
Posts: 37941 | Location: Somewhere in the middle | Registered: 19 January 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I'm sorry to hear about your friend, wtg.

I don't think that any one of us is safe.

SO found out yesterday that his aunt had a heart attack and then was diagnosed with Covid at the hospital.

I finally decided to Google testing options. I don't believe that rapid tests are accurate enough personally. I knew about PCR tests. The blood test must have slipped my mind.
 
Posts: 24724 | Registered: 31 March 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by wtg:
Pretty interesting stuff about vaccines and immunity...reader mode works with WaPo articles, but if you can't get to it, let me know and I'll post it as a gift link.

It's longish but I think definitely worth reading.

quote:
In the beginning, when the coronavirus was new, the quest for a vaccine was simple. Everyone started out susceptible to the virus. Shots brought spectacular protection.

But the next chapters of life with the virus — and the choice of booster shots for the fall and beyond — will be complicated by the layers of immunity that now ripple through the population, laid down by past infections and vaccinations.

When it comes to viral infections, past is prologue: The version of a virus to which we’re first exposed can dictate how we respond to later variants and, maybe, how well vaccines work.

It’s a phenomenon known by the forbidding name of original antigenic sin, and, in the case of the coronavirus, it prompts a constellation of questions. Are our immune systems stuck still revving up defenses against a version of the virus that has vanished? Will updated booster shots that are designed to thwart variants be much better than the original vaccine? How often will we be reinfected? Is there a better way to broaden immunity?

The answers to those questions will influence our long-term relationship with the coronavirus — and the health of millions of people. But more than two years into the pandemic, the quest to unravel these riddles underscores the seemingly unending complexity of the battle against a new pathogen.


https://www.washingtonpost.com...e-response-boosters/


I do agree with the last sentence. But I don't think that the efficacy and durability of the vaccines are or ever were great personally.
 
Posts: 24724 | Registered: 31 March 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Has Achieved Nirvana
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Thanks, Daniel. She says she feels fine. And she's the one who sent me the link to that WaPo article I just posted.

There's so much we don't know about this virus and how our immune systems react to it, and to the vaccines.

Just to be clear, the blood test is not used to diagnose COVID. It tells you what the level of neutralizing antibodies is in your blood is. You can have antibodies from either having had the virus and/or being vaccinated.

Problem is, we don't really know what levels are protective, so it's hard to interpret the number you get back from the blood test.


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We are all visitors to this time, this place. We are just passing through. Our purpose here is to observe, to learn, to grow, to love… and then we return home. - Australian Aboriginal proverb

Bazootiehead-in-training



 
Posts: 37941 | Location: Somewhere in the middle | Registered: 19 January 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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