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Minor Deity
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quote:
Originally posted by pianojuggler:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda]
Can't come up with the examples (and don't care t google to get the tribal and national names), but there are on-going horrific black on black genocides, sometimes with one tribe going with machetes and whatever on another, because of their slightly different ethnicities in their context. They can readily identify their differences which to us Westerners are indistinguishable.
Earlier I mentioned the Tutsi and Hutu. I think they are the ones you’re thinking of.


Yes, PJ, that tribal warfare was one of the main ones I was thinking of - the most well-known, but hardly the only one. Sorry I missed your mention.

Gentleman's Agreement


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The most dangerous word in the language is "obvious"

 
Posts: 14392 | Location: PA | Registered: 20 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Minor Deity
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I've been very interested in reading about the grandfather I never knew (he died before my birth), Charles David Isaacson. Besides being well-known in music circles, he was perhaps later even better known as a journalist who had a literary rivalry with H.P.Lovecraft, a famous anti-Semite.

The main topic of their antagonism was antiSemitism, which they dealt with in their respective journals. Note this long preceded Hitler (but well illustrates the Anglo-European intellectual eugenic attitudes fostering his rise).

Charles Isaacson's antagonism with H. P. Lovecraft's antiSemitism/racism

A few excerpts from their rivalry (Lovecraft's attacks).

Lovecraft:
quote:
Charles D. Isaacson, the animating essence of the publication, is a character of remarkable quality. Descended from the race that produced a Mendelsshon, he is himself a musician of no ordinary talent, whilst as a man of literature he is worthy of comparison with his co-religionists Moses Mendez and Isaac D’Israeli. But the very spirituality which gives elevation to the Semitic mind, partially unfits it for the consideration of tastes and trends in Aryan thought and writings, hence it is not surprising that he is a radical of the extremest sort.
—H. P. Lovecraft, “In A Major Key,” The Conservative (July 1915)
reprinted in Collected Essays of H. P. Lovecraft 1.56-58


Lovecraft:

quote:
A Jew is capable of infinite nastiness when he seeks revenge, & I believe I shall have ample grounds for making this particular Israelite the hero of a spirited Dunciad. I can almost predict his line of attack. he will call me superficial, crude, barbaric in thought, imperfect in education, offensively arrogant & bigoted, filled with venomous prejudice, wanting in good taste, &c. &c. &c. But what I can will say in reply is also violent & comprehensive. […] I am an anti-Semitic by nature, but thought I had concealed my prejudice in my remarks concerning Isaacson. I showed him every consideration in my article, carefully saying that I attacked not the man, but the ideas. […] The Jew is an adverse influence, since he insidiously degrades or Orientalizes our robust Aryan civilization. The intellect of the race is indisputably great, but its nature is not such that it may be safely employed in forming Western political & social ideas. Oppressive as it seems, the Jew must be muzzled. Wherefore Isaacson has reason to expect a warfare of the bitterest kind if he uses his revengeful sarcasm on me. I shall not utter the first word, but shall hold the CONSEVATIVE until the serpent strikes. Then—LET HIM BEWARE. Like old Marcus Fabius on his mission to Carthage, I come with folded toga, ready for peace or war.
—H. P. Lovecraft to Rheinhart Kleiner, 10 Aug 1915, LRK 18-19

...Isaacson’s predilection for obscenity has robbed him of all the delicacy inherent in real white men, & he views Nature without its beauty & its refining adornments. It is a mistake to allow Jews to mingle with Aryans as social equals. I have never been forced to do this, & at high school I drew the colour line at Jews as well as negroes, though of course there is no racial comparison between the two classes of undesirables. How diabolically Isaacson tries to compare different classes of prejudices, & trace to one source those arising from race, religion, & politics. As fellow sufferers with himself he groups races both above & beneath him; he calls everyone “persecuted”, from the masterful Aryan German, representative of the world’s highest racial stock,


Notice the racist comments in the last paragraph, where Lovecraft explicitly lumps Jews with 'Negroes' across the colour bar. According to Lovecraft, my grandfather is not a white man.


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The most dangerous word in the language is "obvious"

 
Posts: 14392 | Location: PA | Registered: 20 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
czarina
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Gentleman's Agreement


Great cast! But sounds like a dopey plot. The backstory is pretty interesting, though.


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fear is the thief of dreams

 
Posts: 21539 | Registered: 18 May 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
czarina
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And yet Lovecraft says Jews' intellectual powers are indisputably superior. This I have always found weird. How can a "race" that produced an Einstein be inferior?

Frankly I think that some anti-semites resent Jews for the same reason that some of the uneducated resent intellectuals. They hate what makes them feel inferior.


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fear is the thief of dreams

 
Posts: 21539 | Registered: 18 May 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Minor Deity
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quote:
Originally posted by piqué:

Frankly I think that some anti-semites resent Jews for the same reason that some of the uneducated resent intellectuals. They hate what makes them feel inferior.

Yes


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“It's hard to win an argument with a smart person. It's damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person." -- Bill Murray

 
Posts: 13890 | Location: The outer burrows | Registered: 27 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
czarina
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Amanda, reading your grandfather's bio, it's possible that we are distantly related. There are Silvermans from Brooklyn on my mother's side.


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fear is the thief of dreams

 
Posts: 21539 | Registered: 18 May 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
czarina
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Whoa! This is *really* weird!

quote:
Isaacson was far from the last Jewish person that Lovecraft would meet—he would come into contact with the Jewish poet Samuel Loveman in 1917, and Jewish expatriate Sonia H. Greene of the Blue Pencil Club, who would become his wife in 1924.


Lovecraft married a Jew? Am I reading this correctly?


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fear is the thief of dreams

 
Posts: 21539 | Registered: 18 May 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Minor Deity
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The “his” of “his wife” could be Loveman. It’s confusing; could be either.


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“It's hard to win an argument with a smart person. It's damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person." -- Bill Murray

 
Posts: 13890 | Location: The outer burrows | Registered: 27 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Serial origamist
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No. Lovecraft married a Jewish woman… but one he felt was “very well assimilated” to Anglo-Saxon (the most superior race) ways.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._P._Lovecraft


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pj, citizen-poster, unless specifically noted otherwise.

mod-in-training.

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All types of erorrs fixed while you wait.

 
Posts: 30040 | Registered: 27 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
czarina
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quote:
Originally posted by pianojuggler:
No. Lovecraft married a Jewish woman… but one he felt was “very well assimilated” to Anglo-Saxon (the most superior race) ways.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._P._Lovecraft


Insane!!


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fear is the thief of dreams

 
Posts: 21539 | Registered: 18 May 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Minor Deity
Picture of Amanda
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by piqué:
And yet Lovecraft says Jews' intellectual powers are indisputably superior. This I have always found weird. How can a "race" that produced an Einstein be inferior?

Frankly I think that some anti-semites resent Jews for the same reason that some of the uneducated resent intellectuals. They hate what makes them feel inferior.


Seems clear that their definition of inferiority/superiority is not based on intellectual prowess but some other qualities to do with the nobility of the superior White race.


--------------------------------
The most dangerous word in the language is "obvious"

 
Posts: 14392 | Location: PA | Registered: 20 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Minor Deity
Picture of Amanda
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by piqué:
quote:
Originally posted by pianojuggler:
No. Lovecraft married a Jewish woman… but one he felt was “very well assimilated” to Anglo-Saxon (the most superior race) ways.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._P._Lovecraft


Insane!!


Lovecraft was clearly a bizarre man. Both his parents died "insane", the clear evidence of his macabre writing and he was very late having anything to do with the opposite sex.

No wonder he was attracted to a Jewish woman - something about erotic love of the hated.
(Have a look at a picture of him, too.)

I think it's interesting that he had much flattering to say about my grandfather both before and after his death.

Also that they were about the both age, very precocious in their writing, and died young - my grandfather at 44, Lovecraft at 46. Also, both were reputedly then "impoverished" despite illustrious careers. (My grandfather suffered from diabetes.)

He and my grandmother were by then divorced. Lovecraft was also divorced - apparently, he eventually began to lash out at his Jewish wife.)


--------------------------------
The most dangerous word in the language is "obvious"

 
Posts: 14392 | Location: PA | Registered: 20 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Minor Deity
Picture of Amanda
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by piqué:
Amanda, reading your grandfather's bio, it's possible that we are distantly related. There are Silvermans from Brooklyn on my mother's side.


Ha! There are a LOT of Silvermans (especially in Brooklyn), but you never know, cuz.
Big Grin
My grandmother is the one whose family came from somewhere near Białystok, Poland.


--------------------------------
The most dangerous word in the language is "obvious"

 
Posts: 14392 | Location: PA | Registered: 20 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
czarina
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Well, it would have been related by marriage even if so. A Silverman who married into the Schwerin family (my granddmothers)


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fear is the thief of dreams

 
Posts: 21539 | Registered: 18 May 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Minor Deity
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Anatole Broyard was the light skinned Creole who "passed as white" in NYC.

He became a respected literary figure there, never revealing his roots and raising his family in an elite Connecticut milieu. His daughter, Bliss Broyard, later wrote about her father and his (later, her too) complex sense of racial identity.

Ever since I read about her, I strongly identified. Wish Dad could have known about Broyard's secret - bet they would have identified at the New Yorker.

(He's only one such traumatized "passing" Creole intellectual I've read about; imagine how many others there are who weren't famous!).

Anatole Broyard - white on black. More racial ID trauma

By his daughter, Bliss Broyard:

One Drop of Blood - about Her Father's Confused Racial Identity

She didn't find out until after her father was dead.


--------------------------------
The most dangerous word in the language is "obvious"

 
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