Deliberately provocative title is obvious PD bait…

But seriously, very surprising to see that attendance in higher education varies with income in France almost as much as in the US, despite the tremendous difference in cost.

(Chart posted by Thomas Piketty)

I don't think this is a new finding. In most European nations, slots in college are rationed by methods, like sorting at age 12, that are highly correlated with family income. Couple that with the extensive need-based aid in the US and voila, not much difference in basic access between socialist and "market oriented" systems despite the price differences.

I think we do a better job of offering pathways for lower-income students whose predictors of success wouldn't get them a sniff at a chance of post-secondary education elsewhere, and we have second and third chance pathways that are simply unavailable elsewhere.


BTW, only Piketty would break things down with a totally obscure term like trentiles. Heck, the autocorrect is trying to change the term!

I was astonished to discover we did not qualify for scholarships. Timing all wrong. Very little savings but two attorneys income and I had just become a partner. Zero aid. Darn.

Fortunately oldest went to Cooper Union. No tuition so we paid room and board in NYC.

Happy to say we put three kids through with no loans.

It wasn’t easy.

Now working on Puffin’s med school.

Yikes.

Jf

To get three through with no debt is quite an accomplishment. We did it with one and it required some planning. Of course, she had a five-year undergrad program.

Now we're helping her through three years of grad school. We had told her she was on her own for grad school, but she was so diligent about saving and preparing for it that we decided to cover her in-state tuition. She pays for her own living and all insurance.

But it's not cheap, even at UNC.

A lot cheaper at UNC than at UVA, I'll warrant! NC appropriates a lot more per student than VA does. Although for grad schools I'm not sure how big the differentials are.

And Mik's daughter came from out of state anyway. If that matters in grad school.

quote:

Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
I don't think this is a new finding. In most European nations, slots in college are rationed by methods, like sorting at age 12, that are highly correlated with family income. Couple that with the extensive need-based aid in the US and voila, not much difference in basic access between socialist and "market oriented" systems despite the price differences.

I think we do a better job of offering pathways for lower-income students whose predictors of success wouldn't get them a sniff at a chance of post-secondary education elsewhere, and we have second and third chance pathways that are simply unavailable elsewhere.


BTW, only Piketty would break things down with a totally obscure term like trentiles. Heck, the autocorrect is trying to change the term!

I was thinking exactly the same thing about trentiles.

quote:

Originally posted by Mikhailoh:
To get three through with no debt is quite an accomplishment. We did it with one and it required some planning. Of course, she had a five-year undergrad program.

Now we're helping her through three years of grad school. We had told her she was on her own for grad school, but she was so diligent about saving and preparing for it that we decided to cover her in-state tuition. She pays for her own living and all insurance.

But it's not cheap, even at UNC.

I told my kids that they were on their own for grad school, but that, if they chose an undergrad school that gave them a scholarship, they could apply the scholarship money toward grad school.

Getting into college and graduating without insane debt is becoming crazy hard.

I mean, the surest path to admission to a top college is to be the best in the friggin' world at something. The woman who won the ladies snowboard halfpipe is at Princeton; the guy who won the men's gold for figure skating is Yale; one of the ladies figure skaters is Cornell.

What chance does a regular, good student with good grades have anymore?

I think if you're serious about not acquiring debt, and you're not a scholarship kid, you go to a commuter college for 2 years and then move to a four year afterwards.

You might still have debt, but it will be much more manageable.


As for me, one benefit of having an only and starting late, we actually quit putting money in his 529 a couple years ago because it seemed unlikely he'll be able to spend it all even through graduate school. But I can eventually change the beneficiary to my niece's kid (who is due in a few months) so I don't lose too much sleep about potentially overfunding it.

quote:

Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
Getting into college and graduating without insane debt is becoming crazy hard.

I mean, the surest path to admission to a top college is to be the best in the friggin' world at something. The woman who won the ladies snowboard halfpipe is at Princeton; the guy who won the men's gold for figure skating is Yale; one of the ladies figure skaters is Cornell.

What chance does a regular, good student with good grades have anymore?

My stepson was an average student of medium-high intelligence (not especially gifted or talented) going to an average public high school. He got into Yale by going to their summer football camp and making a big impression on the coach, who wanted junior bad enough that he helped him with a strategy: do a second senior year at an Eastern prep school and hit your grades and tests out of the ballpark. Yes, he wanted to go to Yale that badly.

He got a football scholarship to Choate and then from there got admitted to Yale with a free ride because we fell far under the income threshold.

He passed on perfectly good acceptances and financial aid from UW and other schools to do this. He had visited a friend attending Yale and then became determined that that was where he was going, come hell or high water. I coached him on his personal essay for his application, and I seriously did not think there was any way he would get in.

But what he lacks in intellectual talent he more than made up for in charm, good looks, leadership qualities,and sheer will and determination.

He ended up sitting out football most of his time there due to injuries, including a (football) career-ending concussion. All of his parental figures were opposed to him playing football but he knew it was his best chance to do what he wanted to do.

When that kid set his eyes on something he wouldn't take no for an answer.

quote:

Getting into college and graduating without insane debt is becoming crazy hard.

Define insane debt?

quote:

Originally posted by jon-nyc:
And Mik's daughter came from out of state anyway. If that matters in grad school.

It matters at my employer and at Rutgers.

I did find that it was easier to establish in-state residency as a graduate student at Rutgers than it is at undergraduate institutions. According to the rules, graduate students could apply for in-state residency after living in New Jersey for a year, so half of a master's degree and most of a longer degree could be done at in-state rates.

In practice, I decided to press my luck and apply after one semester in New Jersey, and they gave it to me. Either it was an error, or there was some policy that wasn't included in the student handbook.

Lots of graduate schools consider all of their students as in-state for tuition purposes. That was eldest's situation in Nevada.

quote:

Originally posted by piqué:

My stepson was an average student of medium-high intelligence (not especially gifted or talented) going to an average public high school. [snip]

I think the admission rates for the most elite colleges back up my statement.

I would say that a kid with average grades and medium to average intellect who comes from a school near me, who does not have fabulously famous or wealthy parents or athletic ability, has **zero** chance of being admitted to Yale.

The kids I know from my kids' high school went to elite universities with top grades and scores -- minimum. They also typically had incredible connections (e.g. daughter of the chair of the federal reserve), incredible talent (winner of major opera competition), and so forth.

And a lot of kids like that don't get into elite universities.

Kudos to this boy you are describing for his good fortune.