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you go to a commuter college for 2 years and then move to a four year afterwards.

And then you absolutely have to do everything right at each step of the way (esp. course planning in the first two years) and you can't change your major or explore.

That's one of the things I dislike most, students feel like they are locked in to a path and changing it usually has direct financial implications.

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Originally posted by Cindysphinx:

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Originally posted by piqué:

My stepson was an average student of medium-high intelligence (not especially gifted or talented) going to an average public high school. [snip]

I think the admission rates for the most elite colleges back up my statement.

I would say that a kid with average grades and medium to average intellect who comes from a school near me, who does not have fabulously famous or wealthy parents or athletic ability, has **zero** chance of being admitted to Yale.

The kids I know from my kids' high school went to elite universities with top grades and scores -- minimum. They also typically had incredible connections (e.g. daughter of the chair of the federal reserve), incredible talent (winner of major opera competition), and so forth.

And a lot of kids like that don't get into elite universities.

Kudos to this boy you are describing for his good fortune.

I didn't mean to imply that this was any kind of norm. Not at all. I believe he was a total outlier.

However, apparently the track the Yale coach set him on--doing a second senior year at a private prep school--is a standard workaround for athletes. It was news to us that this existed, and I'm not sure it would have worked had he not had the support of the Yale coach.

And how did he get that support? Well, I think it is his personality--he certainly wasn't a football standout in terms of stats. He's a Master of the Universe type and was born that way. A trait he certainly didn't get from his very laid back and easygoing father.

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Originally posted by ShiroKuro:

quote:

you go to a commuter college for 2 years and then move to a four year afterwards.

And then you absolutely have to do everything right at each step of the way (esp. course planning in the first two years) and you can't change your major or explore.

That's one of the things I dislike most, students feel like they are locked in to a path and changing it usually has direct financial implications.

Buckle up -- unpopular views coming.

I don't know anyone who has successfully followed this community college path. I know my experience is anecdotal, I admit that.

But what I see is that the bright-eyed high school grad goes to the community college. Usually part-time, usually while working a job. This stretches the road out ahead of them from two years to many more, which is discouraging.

Then they are in large classes with students who may not be all that motivated. This is discouraging.

Much of the classwork duplicates what they did in high school and is not at all innovative, relevant, or interesting. This is discouraging.

They are not part of any social scene connected with the community college, so it is hard to connect with peers -- many of whom are also working jobs. They're still in their childhood bedroom instead of being out on their own and learning how to adult.

Then as they get closer to getting their degree, they run into yet another obstacle: The classes they need to graduate are full or offered at times that do not fit their work schedule.

The death blow then comes when they seek to transfer, and some of their credits don't transfer. By then, they've been in college for 2-4 years, it has been a slog, and they just decide that several more high-cost years aren't worth it and they want to get on with their life.

Our system could be so much better. But in my experience, it's not. I think it would be better to go to pretty much any four-year state school pretty much anywhere right out of high school instead of the community college route. I think any kid with the gumption to navigate all of the shortcomings of community college has the gumption to be a stand-out at a four-year state school.

Some of the problems you describe, Cindy, can be solved with really good advisors at the CC. My uni has a bridge program with the statewide community college system and it's actually pretty good in terms of courses transferring and so on. We have a transfer equivalency list that anyone can access, plug in the community college, the courses and see what the course would count for here.

But the other problems you mention aren't so easily solved and I have had a lot of students struggle to make the adjustment from CC to university.

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Some of the problems you describe, Cindy, can be solved with really good advisors at the CC.

That's a big if.

Cindy is right about the big picture. There is good evidence that BA-seeking students who start at CCs tend to have lower degree completion rates than similar students who start at a four-year university, even an under resourced public regional.

Everyone can point to anecdotes of students who "saved money by starting at a community college and ultimately got their degree from Berkeley and went to work for six figures in Silicon Valley."

The problem is that CCs depress completion for all the reasons Cindy mentions.

They serve an excellent purpose for students who need very specialized vocational training, and who need remedial coursework. They also benefit marginal students who are seeking a low cost way to find out IF they're capable of succeeding in an academic setting. And they are a key asset for older and returning students who have commitments that prevent them from going full time at a four-year university. They're at their worst for capable students who are just trying to shave a few bucks off of the tuition bill.

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They're at their worst for capable students who are just trying to shave a few bucks off of the tuition bill.

I can totally imagine all the impediments you describe Cindy.

I know two people that did the CC-Uni route and they were both successful. Coincidentally, they were both emancipated at 17 and couldn’t afford any other way and both became high school math teachers.

But that’s anecdote and selection bias since I’m more likely to run into college grads socially than college dropouts.

Having said that, I stand by the claim that it’s a cheaper route.

I also only have a few data points.

I've had successful students transferred from community colleges or small four-year colleges and finish their degrees, but some of them have had struggles with credits that didn't transfer.

I believe my institution has agreements with some, maybe all, in-state community colleges, but some of the students with difficulties had earned their credits years before. Also, we have a number of private religious colleges here that may have accreditation issues that interfere with transfers, but I'm not sure about that.

Within the university, I believe my college (journalism) still has the most stringent admission standards in terms of GPA. There are also requirements like an outside minor and a foreign language that some other colleges don't have. (This was true when I was hired and I haven't reconfirmed it, but we haven't changed our requirements, so it should still be true unless other colleges have changed theirs.) This can make it hard for students coming from elsewhere, who may find that their credits transfer, but only as electives, meaning that they still have a lot of courses to take.

I taught at a community college in Kentucky years ago. My students were mostly in pre-engineering and were very strong, but they needed to live at home for the extra two years for financial or family reasons. (They were also all men, so imagine me on my first day of class, 21 years old and facing 25 19-year-old men. But I digress.) I like to think that they went on to successfully complete four-year degrees.

I know the outcome for one of my calculus students, since she later married my ex-husband. (Yeah...good times.) She graduated and earned an MBA.

Community colleges can be very good for students who want to cut costs by taking summer courses while they live at home or while they're still in high school. I knew many students in Gainesville who did that, and Muffin's Sister earned her AA as part of a dual enrollment program that was perfect for her and made the transition to culinary school smooth. I also knew University of Florida students who took calculus across town at the community college and transferred the credits, because the classes were smaller and the professors more attentive.

Rutgers-Camden set up an agreement with the community college down the street while I was in grad school. I really hope that it worked out for students trying to get a four-year degree as cheaply as possible, because the economic situation in Camden is so dire. I think community colleges can be life-changing for people who have that kind of struggle.

My experience with CC transfers to W&M has been less than stellar. We have articulation agreements with local CCs. Heck, we OWN one of them. Most of the students who do succeed in following the straight and narrow pathway -- taking certain classes, achieving the requisite GPA (3.5, I think) -- usually graduate from W&M. And I'm sure they do better in life than they would have if they had gone straight into the labor force with their HS degree.

But they tend to struggle at W&M. The coursework in the CC system doesn't prepare them well for the rigorous standards most W&M professors set in their classes (quantity of work and quality), and they often find that they are underprepared for the upper level classes in their concentrations here. That's especially true in quantitative fields, where the freshman and sophomore level courses are really important. They graduate, in part because of the resources we devote to counseling and helping them. But many/most seem well behind their peers who started here. I always wonder how well they might have fared if they had started at VCU or Old Dominion and spent their entire academic career at a four year institution instead of spending so much time in transition mode.

Student loan forgiveness program expanded:

https://www.usatoday.com/story...817734001/?gnt-cfr=1

Basic requirement seems to be (1) works a public service job, and (2) have made payments for 10 years … then the rest of your student loan may be forgiven. Recent changes seem to have relaxed the rules that determine which jobs count as public service jobs. According to the article: “ … jobs are considered public service based on who your employer is, not based on your job title.”