You give the cops free coffee. You don't ask them to leave. If you really feel unsafe at a coffee shop, get up and leave. I cant imagine there is any percentage in being rude to cops. My 2 cents.

Since we don't have enough information, I don't see how we can judge if this was crazy or not. The only thing we do know is that police do make a lot of perfectly innocent people uncomfortable. For good reason. But we don't know if that was the reason for the woman's request in this case.

quote:

Originally posted by QuirtEvans:

quote:

Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
Say you are working the counter at Starbucks and a female customer says she feels unsafe because her ex just arrived, and she has a TRO against him. She asks you to ask him to leave, as she doesn't want to initiate contact or have him arrested.

You would refuse?

I wouldn't refuse. Heck, you might be liable if something bad happened after you refused her request. I be polite and would try to find an amicable solution (free gift card), but I'd want him to leave.

Regarding whether to believe someone who claims the group of cops is harassing her . . . Why wouldn't you believe it?

#BelieveWomen

That, of course, isn't the issue. If she says they're harassing her, or if she says one of them is her ex and there's bad blood and he's a scary guy, then of course you have to do something.

The issue is simpler.

"I feel unsafe."

"Why?"

"Because they're cops." Or "I just do." Or "Because they're cops, and cops don't like black people." Or even "I had a bad experience with cops once."

I'm not sure that #BelieveWomen ought to apply in such circumstances.

I was responding to PD's suggestion that you shouldn't get involved because you wouldn't know if she were telling the truth. Paraphrasing PD.

quote:

Originally posted by piqué:
Since we don't have enough information, I don't see how we can judge if this was crazy or not. The only thing we do know is that police do make a lot of perfectly innocent people uncomfortable. For good reason. But we don't know if that was the reason for the woman's request in this case.

Still struggling with the idea that whether someone felt uncomfortable is relevant.

Black people make some people uncomfortable. Disabled people make some people uncomfortable. Gays make some people uncomfortable

Implicit in pique's point is a notion that it may be *reasonable* for people to feel unsafe around uniformed police.

But, the obvious response is this: sure, some small proportion of police are bad apples. But some small proportion of black people are criminals. (I don't think that's arguable. And so, of course, are some white people.) Is it OK for someone to claim that they feel unsafe around black people because some small proportion of black people are criminals?

And some people may think that all gays are an abomination in the eyes of God. Is it OK for them to claim that they are uncomfortable around openly gay people? Is it OK for them to ask Starbucks to ask a gay couple to refrain from holding hands or kissing, because it makes them uncomfortable?

The world, and the businesses in the world, owe you no obligation to cure your discomfort or to make you feel safe. If a particular kind of music upsets you, and an establishment plays that music, you are under no obligation to go there. If you don't feel safe in a certain neighborhood, don't go to that neighborhood. If you don't feel safe in the presence of liberals, and if a restaurant hosts nightly progressive meetings, I'd suggest staying away from that restaurant.

It's reasonable to feel uncomfortable around police because apparently police are trained to brutalize innocent people and use a level of force all out of proportion to the situations they are called to assist. This is not at all equivalent to feeling uncomfortable around a minority or marginalized group. When police are armed like the military and communities have SWAT teams to address ordinary civil problems, then you have policing that is out of control. It is a fact that the police are out of control, that they brutalize and even kill innocent people, and that communities are being turned into police states. The police are out of control, and face next to no accountability. It seems to me that means it is perfectly reasonable for an ordinary citizen to fear the police. And when a police spokesman says that this kind of thing is happening more often, they really should be asking themselves why innocent citizens are afraid of them.

Well, let’s not go over the top.

Those are some very sweeping generalizations. There are 18,000 policing agencies. Are they all, and everyone in them, corrupt?

I’m unaware of any police agencies that use SWAT teams to address “ordinary civil problems.”

That said, there are problematic agencies and problematic officers.

There is no question that police have been caught on camera doing horrific things. The image of the profession has undoubtedly suffered, and rightfully so. There are communities that have been the victims of harassment, shake downs, and worse, and it is not surprising that some fear the police.

That doesn’t give a person the right to have officers ejected from a place where they have a right to be.

quote:

Originally posted by rontuner:
Not enough data in the story to do more than hazard guesses...

I agree, complicated by the fact we are talking about the actions of a “barista”, who may or may not be paid minimum wage.

quote:

Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
Well, let’s not go over the top.

Those are some very sweeping generalizations. There are 18,000 policing agencies. Are they all, and everyone in them, corrupt?

I’m unaware of any police agencies that use SWAT teams to address “ordinary civil problems.”

That said, there are problematic agencies and problematic officers.

There is no question that police have been caught on camera doing horrific things. The image of the profession has undoubtedly suffered, and rightfully so. There are communities that have been the victims of harassment, shake downs, and worse, and it is not surprising that some fear the police.

That doesn’t give a person the right to have officers ejected from a place where they have a right to be.

All of that.

And, of course, police officers have rights, too. They work, and may very well live, in that community. They have a right to live their lives and to drink coffee, if they want to. Imagine yourself in the officer's shoes. If they can be ejected from Starbucks because someone feels unsafe, where are they allowed to go? Is there any restaurant, any store in town where they can go without having to wonder whether, today, someone will say that they feel unsafe, and that the officer must leave?

And, if they're recognized as a police officer (some officers carry guns off duty), don't they have exactly the same problem when they're off duty, and going into McDonald's with their kids?

Imagine how bitter a law-abiding, well-meaning cop would feel, if they were treated the way pique thinks is reasonable. Imagine how it would sour that cop on the populace in general. Do you think there's a chance, in my mind a likelihood, that it would make the problem pique identifies worse?

No. The more I think about the logical extensions of thinking it's OK to tell cops to leave Starbucks because someone feels unsafe, the more I think it's a disaster.

quote:

Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
Still struggling with the idea that whether someone felt uncomfortable is relevant.

That's a good point, but again, the police wield power that the other groups you mention do not. And when cops do bad, it's an abuse of power, and to my mind that makes it different.

There are men who abuse their power to engage their sexual fantasies. This makes some women uncomfortable. Is it relevant that it makes them uncomfortable? Obvious, the one is a single man abusing power vs. the group being held accountable for the actions of some. But in this day of very much needed change, is that such a bad thing?

I'm just asking because I don't know how to think about this situation. I can just about see both sides.

However, I think the cops in this case could have turned the situation around by simply saying--out loud so everyone could hear, "We're so sorry, we're making someone uncomfortable. We didn't mean to. Are you sure we can't stay?" I think it would have elicited a round of support from everyone (with the possible exception of one person).

quote:

Starbucks has issued an apology after an employee asked a group of six police officers in Tempe, Ariz. to either leave one of its stores or move out of the line of sight of a customer. The officers say a barista told them the customer didn't feel safe with police nearby.

The Tempe Officers Association, the police union, posted a statement about the July 4th incident on its Facebook page, saying that "the officers paid for their drinks and stood together having a cup of coffee. They were approached by a barista, who knew one of the officers by name, because he is a regular at that location.

"The barista said that a customer 'did not feel safe' because of the police presence. The barista asked the officers to move out of the customer's line of sight or to leave.

"Disappointed, the officers did in fact leave."

we're still very short on data

It’s the customer’s own personal problem to deal with if he feels uneasy being in a coffee shop with cops present. It’s a privately owned store that’s open to the general public including police officers. That customer didn’t have a valid reason for his request to ask that the police officers should leave. The barista should have denied his request.

Employees in the fast food and drink business are quickly trained. The training is OJT (On the Job Training) and customer ejection is probably not a topic in the training guide. If anyone, it’s the store’s manager who is better trained than the baristas, should decide if and when a customer should be ejected.

Just a clarification: asking them to move out of the customer's line of sight or to leave isn't an ejection, since they have an alternative where they can stay. In fact, it isn't clear from the way it's phrased whether asking them to leave was an ejection at all. "Would you mind leaving?" is very different from "I'll have to ask you to leave." We don't know which this was.

Legally I'm sure your right, Quirt. However, from the cop's point of view I think it's a distinction without a difference.

And I suppose I should also mention that I've worked with the Tempe PD a lot in the past. They're a great bunch of people, who are very sensitive to the fact that there is a gigantic university in their town, filled with students who often do stupid things. There have been incidents, but they are really in the minority. No one is perfect, and of course not all cops are perfect. But the generalizations here are a bit out of control.

It seems to me that we are splitting hairs in terms of waiting for more facts. What additional facts would be relevant to the situation? Was it a barista or the manager? Was the barista making minimum wage? Had they been trained in "customer discomfort sensitivity"? Why is any of this relevant?

The real question, it seems to me, is whether an individual has a reasonable expectation that they can request that someone who is not doing anything wrong leave a business simply because they don't want them there. I think the reason (discomfort, fear, whatever) is beside the point.

My 2c!

quote:

Originally posted by Nina:

It seems to me that we are splitting hairs in terms of waiting for more facts. What additional facts would be relevant to the situation? Was it a barista or the manager? Was the barista making minimum wage? Had they been trained in "customer discomfort sensitivity"? Why is any of this relevant?

We've already given examples. A bad history, personal or otherwise, with the officer(s) in question. An ex who may have been verbally abusive? Someone who was arrested by one of them and had the arrest dismissed after a complaint was filed against the officer? Someone who has a known history of filing complaints against the police department, and has had a weird series of traffic stops since? Did the officers give the person a dirty look or say something that could be construed as threatening?

Facts matter.