quote:

Originally posted by jodi:
We have lost our minds.

+1 and in mnay ways

quote:

Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
I can only think of one scenario where asking the officers to leave might be legitimate.

In poorly run police departments, there can be a culture of retaliation against citizens who file complaints. An officer does something, you complain, and the next thing you know you are being followed around by the officer's friends (or the officer herself) for no reason. This extra police scrutiny is calculated to be intimidating, hopefully enough to get the person to drop the complaint. This sort of thing can also happen if a spouse has a domestic violence incident with an officer or applies for a temporary restraining order -- the officer's friends decide to subtly send a message to that spouse. Sadly, it happens.

If that were the case -- if the customer walked up to the barista and said she had filed a complaint or TRO and now these officers were following her -- then they could legitimately be asked to leave.

That is the only sensible possible explanation for this I can come up with.

Legitimately? How would the Starbucks know if the customer's "complaint" was true or BS? Just assume it was true and tell the cops to scram? Hmmmm.

Suppose it is a poorly run department, according to the common wisdom (whatever that is). Now the Starbucks is in the crosshairs. Not wise.

Oh, and this episode has probably created 20,000 more GOP votes in Arizona. Wonderful...

Say you are working the counter at Starbucks and a female customer says she feels unsafe because her ex just arrived, and she has a TRO against him. She asks you to ask him to leave, as she doesn't want to initiate contact or have him arrested.

You would refuse?

I wouldn't refuse. Heck, you might be liable if something bad happened after you refused her request. I be polite and would try to find an amicable solution (free gift card), but I'd want him to leave.

Regarding whether to believe someone who claims the group of cops is harassing her . . . Why wouldn't you believe it?

#BelieveWomen

If I run a business, I would keep an eye on the situation, but no, I wouldn't walk up to customers and tell them to leave because another customer that I don't know from the proverbial hole in a wall tells me that "you" make them uncomfortable.

As for legal/PR consequences, don't they go both ways? Throw someone you don't know out of your establishment for "no reason" and you could face legal action for discrimination, or at a minimum a PR blowback as in the case we're observing.

For this barista, the consequences of her choice could include dismissal.

quote:

Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
If I run a business, I would keep an eye on the situation, but no, I wouldn't walk up to customers and tell them to leave because another customer that I don't know from the proverbial hole in a wall tells me that "you" make them uncomfortable.

As for legal/PR consequences, don't they go both ways? Throw someone you don't know out of your establishment for "no reason" and you could face legal action for discrimination, or at a minimum a PR blowback as in the case we're observing.

For this barista, the consequences of her choice could include dismissal.

The barista should be dismissed or better trained.

quote:

Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
If I run a business, I would keep an eye on the situation, but no, I wouldn't walk up to customers and tell them to leave because another customer that I don't know from the proverbial hole in a wall tells me that "you" make them uncomfortable.

As for legal/PR consequences, don't they go both ways? Throw someone you don't know out of your establishment for "no reason" and you could face legal action for discrimination, or at a minimum a PR blowback as in the case we're observing.

For this barista, the consequences of her choice could include dismissal.

you can refuse service to anyone so long as you have a non-discriminatory reason.

It is also possible I wouldn't act depending on my assessment of the situation. Like, if he were there first, I would suggest that she leave. And I would require more than that someone is uncomfortable.

Regarding PR, who knows. Depends on the situation. Youd better have a darn good reason for whatever you decide to do.

I remember once seeking refuge in a supermarket because I thought a guy followed me off the bus. Say instead it was a Starbucks. If I walked up to the barista and asked that the guy leave because I think he followed me off of the bus and I feel unsafe, you would do nothing? What are my optopns-- leave and get attacked?

Yes, Pique. The reputation of police is poor, largely due to abuses of police powers of all stripes.

I dont see that it is ok to ask officers to leave an establishment without more than someone's discomfort.

quote:

you can refuse service to anyone so long as you have a non-discriminatory reason.

That will be for a court to decide, after you have been sued, of course.

Yes, people have to make decisions in the moment. But they also have to take the consequences for making bad ones. Life is tough sometimes ...

This decision by that particular Starbucks seems like a bad one.

What are the chances that the barista did the right thing? Pretty small. But there is the one scenario where it might be ok.

Its Interesting that Starbucks cant seem to get their employees to understand when they can and cannot eject people from the premises.

It is also possible that the person felt unnerved seeing so many guns. I found it unnerving when I first started doing this work and I was always surrounded by people wearing guns.

Still, that wouldn't be a good reason to kick the officers out.

Not enough data in the story to do more than hazard guesses...

quote:

Originally posted by ShiroKuro:

quote:

What if they were someone who had suffered abuse from the police?

But the logical extension of that becomes unsustainable very fast.

What if I had experience abuse from a man. Could I ask all men to leave the shop? What if I had experienced abuse from an Arab person. Could I ask all Arabs to leave the shop?

Yes, +1000

Remembering the student (at Vasser?) who successfully demanded the school remove a realistically rendered statue of a partly undressed man ( he was only wearing tighty whities). Speaking as a former sculptor, I can't imagine bothering to sculpt those dull underwear.
Why not substitute a fig leaf? (OK, maybe it was deliberately provocative to question the meaning of nudity?)

Everything IS beyond weird these days. Guess Puritans felt "uncomfortable" about most everything. But since when do individuals have such immense power when it comes to dictating everybody's environment, be it artistic or the gardening itself?

(What if a single student was literally allergic to one particular plant the school had planted? Allergies can be physical or emotional, can't they?)

If each and every individual has the right to control everyone's environment, how can an institution make any policy decisions without an impossibly generalized poll? (Wondering if Salemites felt "uncomfortable" around witches or the reverse - i.e, witches felt uncomfortable around witch-believing Salemites. Yes, I did just watch a You-Tube about witch trials.)|

Were their times odder than ours, or the other way around?

quote:

Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
Say you are working the counter at Starbucks and a female customer says she feels unsafe because her ex just arrived, and she has a TRO against him. She asks you to ask him to leave, as she doesn't want to initiate contact or have him arrested.

You would refuse?

I wouldn't refuse. Heck, you might be liable if something bad happened after you refused her request. I be polite and would try to find an amicable solution (free gift card), but I'd want him to leave.

Regarding whether to believe someone who claims the group of cops is harassing her . . . Why wouldn't you believe it?

#BelieveWomen

That, of course, isn't the issue. If she says they're harassing her, or if she says one of them is her ex and there's bad blood and he's a scary guy, then of course you have to do something.

The issue is simpler.

"I feel unsafe."

"Why?"

"Because they're cops." Or "I just do." Or "Because they're cops, and cops don't like black people." Or even "I had a bad experience with cops once."

I'm not sure that #BelieveWomen ought to apply in such circumstances.

quote:

Originally posted by ShiroKuro:

quote:

What if they were someone who had suffered abuse from the police?

But the logical extension of that becomes unsustainable very fast.

What if I had experience abuse from a man. Could I ask all men to leave the shop? What if I had experienced abuse from an Arab person. Could I ask all Arabs to leave the shop?

I don't think your examples are comparable because the Police have legal power over people, and although they are meant to protect us, we know all too well about the abusers. Random men or any other group of people do not have this power, and our recourse when we feel threatened is to call the police.