Every person has their right to life

and death.

quote:

Originally posted by QuirtEvans:
Allowing her to make the choice seems different from making the choice for her.

Seems pretty obvious and almost definitional.

Of course, but we have another word for that, with humans anyway - murder.

quote:

Originally posted by LL:
Every person has their right to life

and death.

What about an 11 year old?

One thing I will say is that this story is obviously very thinly reported. Hopefully more details will come out to make it less horrifying.

quote:

Originally posted by jon-nyc:

quote:

Originally posted by QuirtEvans:
Allowing her to make the choice seems different from making the choice for her.

Seems pretty obvious and almost definitional.

Of course, but we have another word for that, with humans anyway - murder.

Really?

Is the death penalty considered murder, under most common definitions?

How about shooting someone in a war scenario, or the police shooting and killing a fleeing suspect, or a suspect who's shooting back?

It feels as if you're defending it because you said it, and you don't want to admit it was an infelicitous word choice.

Sometimes it’s like you came here from Mars.


Of course the death penalty isn’t called murder. But it isn’t called euthanasia either.

Im sorry, I shouldn’t be so hard on you for not knowing things. All legal euthanasia is voluntary. Involuntary euthanasia is illegal in all countries and is typically considered murder.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia

quote:

Originally posted by jon-nyc:
Im sorry, I shouldn’t be so hard on you for not knowing things. All legal euthanasia is voluntary. Involuntary euthanasia is illegal in all countries and is typically considered murder.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia

Or, you could look at the dictionary.

quote:

eu·tha·na·sia
/ˌyo͞oTHəˈnāZH(ē)ə,ˌyo͞oTHəˈnāzēə/
Learn to pronounce
noun
the painless killing of a patient suffering from an incurable and painful disease or in an irreversible coma. The practice is illegal in most countries.

OR IN AN IRREVERSIBLE COMA.

Your apology would be accepted, were you up to offering one.

I have always viewed, and described, the death penalty as state-sanctioned murder, and if memory serves, I'm not the only person to view it that way.

But that's a bit of a thread-drift.

As to the original topic.... I find it hard to articulate my reaction to this news. It's horrifying to me, at the same time I see what Kluurs is saying, along the lines of "I'm not sure I could endure that" and it seems unfair to say "no, you must live and continue with this suffering." Having never experienced such a thing, let along at such a young age, it's hard for me to truly know the depth of her pain.

But I can't help but think that 17 is too young...

Isn't this the gist of the "It gets better" movement? The details are different but the message is the same: the way you feel right now will change.

Is it callous to say that to a 17 y/o rape survivor? Or is it caring? I can't decide.

My heart breaks thinking about this young woman, and her family. No one could save her, so the law allowed her to end her life before she had the chance to save herself.

I suspect some day (in the not too distant future) we will know more about cognitive and emotional development in teenagers and my gut tells me that we will determine that 17 is too young to really know, that time truly does heal wounds, but it takes longer than perhaps the Netherlands lawmakers realize....

Or perhaps not, and that's all wishful thinking.

quote:

Originally posted by jon-nyc:

quote:

Originally posted by LL:
Every person has their right to life

and death.

What about an 11 year old?

Ooh, hard one.

She was not 11

I was thinking more of the fights we all had about the right to life or death just a few years ago.

''Twas mostly those very ill or elderly.

quote:

Originally posted by jon-nyc:
...every day, hundreds of 17 year olds decide their lives aren’t worth living. The newsworthy part is when the family, medical profession, and society agree.

And nightmarishly (can't recall having read of this before, at least never before to the degree it's being reported recently). I can't bear even to think of children as young as we're hearing of lately merely knowing HOW to take their own lives. Kids of 7, 8, 9 and thereabouts. Could it be through contagion, internet research, bullying which includes not only encouragement but how-to informational?

Am I the only one who can't recall ever having heard of young children taking their lives
before recent times? Certainly never heard of such horrors when I was myself a child. Of terrible suffering and abuse including bullying, yes, but DIY, no. Not even during the Holocaust.

quote:

Originally posted by jon-nyc:
One thing I will say is that this story is obviously very thinly reported. Hopefully more details will come out to make it less horrifying.

There’s some noise on twitter that it may not have been a passive rather than active suicide assist (agreeing to remove care and tube feeding). I haven’t been able to confirm it. That would be better, for sure, but would raise some of the same issues.

quote:

Originally posted by LL:

quote:

Originally posted by jon-nyc:

quote:

Originally posted by LL:
Every person has their right to life

and death.

What about an 11 year old?

Ooh, hard one.

She was not 11

I was thinking more of the fights we all had about the right to life or death just a few years ago.

''Twas mostly those very ill or elderly.

Yeah, I agree with you on the medically assisted suicide. Generally I agree we have a right to life but not a duty to life. I’m all in favor of physician assisted suicide when the patient’s suffering is unbearable and there’s no reasonable hope for recovery. That means mostly elderly, or younger folks with horrific accidents or nasty malignancies.

But it definitely doesn’t include suicidal teenagers.

quote:

I suspect some day (in the not too distant future) we will know more about cognitive and emotional development in teenagers and my gut tells me that we will determine that 17 is too young to really know, that time truly does heal wounds, but it takes longer than perhaps the Netherlands lawmakers realize....

This.

quote:

Originally posted by Piano*Dad:

quote:

I suspect some day (in the not too distant future) we will know more about cognitive and emotional development in teenagers and my gut tells me that we will determine that 17 is too young to really know, that time truly does heal wounds, but it takes longer than perhaps the Netherlands lawmakers realize....

This.

I agree with that, too.

Or maybe we really will come up with a neuralyzer-like treatment to help people forget trauma.