I'm still looking for the Christian sect that thinks lying is ok... So many lies from Republicans that claim that faith is their true center??

quote:

Originally posted by CHAS:
Trump talking over Biden was a debate tactic.
According to a friend, Pence talking over Kamala was sexist.
Will someone explain this to me?

Happy to help!

That's a fair question, and one that hadn't occurred to me.

First, the same action can be racist or exist when applied to one person but not when done to another. That is because history matters. So if you made a joke about how your white friend likes fried chicken, maybe it's funny. If you made a joke about your black friend, this could be seen as racist because of the unfortunate and degrading that black people are so unsophisticated that all they want to eat is fried chicken.

Now, is this fair to the person who talked about the chicken eating habits of a black person? Mmmm, maybe not. But that's how it is. Remember back some time ago when Tiger Woods won some big tournament and the tournament director said they would serve some fried chicken? Big flap. Was he racist? Who knows? Was he ignorant of the history of racism in this country? Yup. So the challenge for all of us is to be aware and sensitive to the history of how groups have been treated. For me, that means I need to understand Jewish culture and history, for instance. But that's on me. If I step into it because I'm ignorant, maybe I will learn and do better next time.

Fortunately, we don't have to guess about whether Pence was being sexist last night. All we have to do is compare his behavior four years ago, when he debated Tim Kaine. Did he talk over the moderator and Kaine then? I don't know, but that would be important information to have.

Here's a review of the 2016 debate performance suggesting Pence did not interrupt in 2016:

"“I wish Kaine hadn’t interrupted Pence as much. Because he was clearly better prepared and could’ve waited to get his points across.”


"Mr Pence spent the latter part of the 1990s as a radio talk-show host, and his media experience showed. Where Mr Kaine had an over-caffeinated demeanour, particularly early in the debate, Mr Pence came across as calm and measured.

He didn't get rattled, and he didn't make any unforced errors that would dominate the headlines tomorrow.

Mr Pence was added to the ticket to serve as an emotional counterbalance to Mr Trump's fiery, blunderbuss style - and Tuesday night showed why that was probably a good idea. A Chris Christie or Newt Gingrich surely would have mounted a more spirited attack on Mrs Clinton's record.

Mr Pence honestly didn't land too many blows on the Democrat. But first things first. He had to put out the raging dumpster fire that was his team's campaign over the past week."

Kamala Harris can hold her own.
Calling tactics sexist because she is a woman and/or because she is black weakens her.
The women I went to law school with got and gave no quarter and they were respected.
kamala has lost respect by being "nice".

I dunno, Chas.

If he is sexist, she is the victim of his sexism. That doesn't weaken her. It calls sexism what it is.

If this sort of thing is not called out, it will never end.

I think you're making a deeper point, though, one that minorities and women have to deal with all the time.

If Harris smiles and doesn't push back aggressively, etc., she is playing into a stereotype and doing women everywhere a disservice.

If she behaves like a man would be allowed to behave, she risks becoming a pariah and losing a presidential election.

I'm OK if she goes with Option 1 because both options are bad.

quote:

Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
I dunno, Chas.

If he is sexist, she is the victim of his sexism. That doesn't weaken her. It calls sexism what it is.

If this sort of thing is not called out, it will never end.

I think you're making a deeper point, though, one that minorities and women have to deal with all the time.

If Harris smiles and doesn't push back aggressively, etc., she is playing into a stereotype and doing women everywhere a disservice.

If she behaves like a man would be allowed to behave, she risks becoming a pariah and losing a presidential election.

I'm OK if she goes with Option 1 because both options are bad.

Must agree, which is no fun.

I think a majority of women, and perhaps especially professional women, were disgusted by the interruptions. I know I was.

Pence didn't exactly help the ticket appeal to suburban women. Cindy explained it very well. And, like the "me too" movement (which I will grant exploded to the point of irrelevance), I will bet my house that virtually every woman can point to multiple times where they've been ignored, spoken over, interrupted, etc. The exception, I guess, would be women like Mother Pence (though even then I wonder who really wears the pants in that family, behind closed doors).

And maybe it was worse than "interupting."

We all interrupt if we get excited, impatient, listen poorly, or just misjudge when someone is finished.

Pence did something different. He refused to yield to someone who had authority over him, the female moderator. That was the part that really got me. I counted an answer when she told him to yield six times. For one answer.

So he was interrupting Harris, but he straight up stripping the moderator of her rightful power. Professional women have to deal with this all the time.

Pence didnt actually call her "Little Lady", but he treated her like one.

I have been talked over a lot in my life, although not as much in recent years.

Is it because I'm older? Is it because the world has changed? Is it because I'm in a milieu where women are still in the minority (about 30% in my college, the last time I counted) but not so ridiculously so as in the days when I was the only woman in the room?

I can't say.

A related problem is when I speak but am not acknowledged. That still does happen to me on occasion. I can't tell if it's a sexist thing or a junior faculty thing or an "I'm soft-spoken" thing. It's especially galling when somebody immediately says what I just said, as if it's great and original. It is my impression, and perhaps this is just my old-school upbringing, that it's better to roll with it than to call somebody out. I don't know.

Last year, I was on a committee. We were discussing a problem that needed solving. I made a suggestion that was greeted by dead silence. A very, very senior faculty member immediately said the same d*mn thing. I don't know if my mouth dropped open, or if I just rolled with it, but something must have smitten him with self-awareness. He paused and said, "Mary Anna just said that."

It was a tiny thing, but it felt so momentous, like I was living in an all-new world. It really doesn't take all that much to make people feel appreciated.

quote:

Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
Pence didnt actually call her "Little Lady", but he treated her like one.

It actually felt worse to me than him calling her "Little Lady," which at least pretends to some kind of demeaning respect. When he bulldozed right over her, it just felt straight-up demeaning.