Anyone but Trump? Not so fast,

26 January 2020, 07:59 PM

quote:
Originally posted by jon-nyc:
quote:
Originally posted by QuirtEvans:
The Des Moines Register disagrees with Jon.

She’s the candidate for educated people who don’t think too deeply. So the mainstream press is basically her base.

Interesting. I'd have said she's the candidate for educated and thoughtful left-leaning moderates, and not the candidate for faux Democrats.

26 January 2020, 09:02 PM

jon-nyc

I think you’re wrong on two fronts. She’s no moderate. Secondly, to appreciate her as the woman ‘with a plan for that’ you really have to avoid looking too deeply at the plan and it’s easily foreseeable unintended consequences. Crucially, you have to ignore incentive effects. Really, you have to just read her stated goals for the plan and judge it based on those. Fortunately for her, that’s as far as most people get.

26 January 2020, 09:08 PM

Steve Miller

quote:
Originally posted by jon-nyc:
I think you’re wrong on two fronts. She’s no moderate. Secondly, to appreciate her as the woman ‘with a plan for that’ you really have to avoid looking too deeply at the plan and it’s easily foreseeable unintended consequences. Crucially, you have to ignore incentive effects. Really, you have to just read her stated goals for the plan and judge it based on those. Fortunately for her, that’s as far as most people get.

I find her anything but moderate. Way too far out for me.

27 January 2020, 12:45 AM

piqué

quote:
Originally posted by Nina:
This article bugs me. He glosses over Trump's obvious shortcomings, but hammers Warren for being untruthful, as he gives Sanders credit for his "honesty." His primary argument seems to be that Trump hasn't done anything "really bad," but he primarily means economically. He gives lip service to the damage Trump "might" have done to our governmental systems, but only discusses NATO, Russian sanctions, and immigration. My favorite is the little caveat he gives himself, "Has he significantly supressed the press?" Um, what would constitute significant in his mind? And are ineffective attempts to suppress the press A-OK?

And, of course, the reason why he "let" the house impeach him is because he had no power to stop it. You can bet he tried, through intimidation, obstruction and deceit. Yet he doesn't acknowledge that the same limitations (needing to pass legislation through the house and the senate) would also be in play for any Democratic POTUS, including Warren and Sanders.

The Dems have rightly been chastised for their "sky is falling" rhetoric against Trump. The same can be said for this.

This sentence sums up his narcissistic view: "Yet for the overwhelming majority of Americans, life is pretty much the same under Trump as it was under Obama." Oh, OK. Yes, it's true that the overwhelming majority of Americans aren't minorities, in poverty, or unemployed. Booyah. I guess we're done here. Life is good, no harm done, nothing to see, move along.

Harrumph.

Thank you for this, Nina.

The idea that anyone would vote for trump that doesn't actually want him to be president is perhaps even more horrifying than that there are actually people stupid enough to want him in office.

Jon, wth can you be thinking?

Is there really no single candidate you'd be happy to see on the Democratic ticket?

27 January 2020, 12:56 AM

QuirtEvans

quote:
Originally posted by jon-nyc:
I think you’re wrong on two fronts. She’s no moderate. Secondly, to appreciate her as the woman ‘with a plan for that’ you really have to avoid looking too deeply at the plan and it’s easily foreseeable unintended consequences. Crucially, you have to ignore incentive effects. Really, you have to just read her stated goals for the plan and judge it based on those. Fortunately for her, that’s as far as most people get.

First, I didn’t say she was a moderate. Nice straw man. I said, she’s a candidate for educated and thoughtful left-leaning moderates. She’s not as far left as Bernie, but she can appeal to the “I'm going to hold my breath until I turn blue!” Bernie brigade. She doesn’t suffer from a Biden’s foot in mouth disease either.

Second, her plans are actual plans. Maybe some of us don’t see the same downsides you do, but the smug way you’ve rejected her all along ... even before she had plans for you to throw darts at ... has always suggested that there was something else at play.

In any event, I have little patience for anyone who claims that they aren’t a Republican but is unwilling to vote for the Democratic nominee in 2020. I’ll hold my nose and vote for Bernie, or Biden, or even Tulsi.

27 January 2020, 02:11 AM

Steve Miller

We need better candidates.

27 January 2020, 03:19 AM

jon-nyc

quote:
The idea that anyone would vote for trump that doesn't actually want him to be president is perhaps even more horrifying than that there are actually people stupid enough to want him in office.

Jon, wth can you be thinking?

Yikes!!! I was really really clear, even replied to my own first post to clarify, this is not about voting for Trump (Stephens was clear too). It’s about choosing ‘none of the above’. In practice that’s a write in or a 3rd party candidate. As I said, I can do that guilt free in a deep blue state.

Funny, though, your sentence that I quoted also fits (for me anyway) if you substitute ’Bernie’ or ‘Warren’. On principle I can’t affirm either of them with my vote.

To your question whom would I support? Buttigieg, Yang, Biden, Bloomberg, Steyer, Klobuchar. I would have supported Harris and Booker. Really anybody but Bernie or Warren.

27 January 2020, 03:34 AM

Steve Miller

Me too, and here in CA it doesn’t make any difference anyway.

27 January 2020, 08:20 AM

QuirtEvans

It’s an attitude we cannot afford, because it could infect people in places that matter.

27 January 2020, 09:22 AM

QuirtEvans

David Frum has it right.

https://twitter.com/davidfrum/...796860995743745?s=21

27 January 2020, 11:38 AM

Nina

I am reminded of Mueller's comment, Trump's own incompetence has kept him from being impeached. What he's tried to do is clearly impeachable. He just can't get anything done, even the impeachable stuff.

27 January 2020, 12:08 PM

piqué

quote:
Originally posted by jon-nyc:
quote:
The idea that anyone would vote for trump that doesn't actually want him to be president is perhaps even more horrifying than that there are actually people stupid enough to want him in office.

Jon, wth can you be thinking?

Yikes!!! I was really really clear, even replied to my own first post to clarify, this is not about voting for Trump (Stephens was clear too). It’s about choosing ‘none of the above’. In practice that’s a write in or a 3rd party candidate. As I said, I can do that guilt free in a deep blue state.

Funny, though, your sentence that I quoted also fits (for me anyway) if you substitute ’Bernie’ or ‘Warren’. On principle I can’t affirm either of them with my vote.

To your question whom would I support? Buttigieg, Yang, Biden, Bloomberg, Steyer, Klobuchar. I would have supported Harris and Booker. Really anybody but Bernie or Warren.

Thanks for clarifying. My preferences are the same as yours. Warren doesn't stand up to scrutiny and she's nearly as divisive as Trump. Sanders, while I happen to want the US to become a democratic socialist country, I dont think he will be effective as president. He's more useful right where he is. I really like Buttigieg but fear that in the end homophobia will kill him off. And I too would happily take any of the others. Except I think Biden will be a disaster and can't win.

But given the choice of warren or Sanders v. Trump, I have no problem voting affirmatively to get Trump out. A protest vote is voting for Trump. If your conscience bothers you so much, then think of yourself not as voting FOR warren or Sanders but as voting AGAINST Trump.

27 January 2020, 12:43 PM

Nina

quote:
If your conscience bothers you so much, then think of yourself not as voting FOR warren or Sanders but as voting AGAINST Trump.

Good point. I'm stealing it.

27 January 2020, 01:21 PM

ShiroKuro

quote:
If your conscience bothers you so much, then think of yourself not as voting FOR warren or Sanders but as voting AGAINST Trump.

Agreeing with piqué here (and also Nina).
.

Jon:

quote:
this is not about voting for Trump (Stephens was clear too). It’s about choosing ‘none of the above’. In practice that’s a write in or a 3rd party candidate. As I said, I can do that guilt free in a deep blue state.

You didn't respond to my comment (on the previous page maybe?) but my take is, we need to ensure that the Dem candidate, whoever that person is, wins by a landslide, both electoral and popular votes. If Trump doesn't win, he's going to dispute the election results.

A write-in or third party vote is putting ammunition in Trump's hands, no matter where your vote is cast.

I agree with piqué about Biden, as she said, "he's a disaster."

If he gets the nomination, you bet your *ss he's getting my vote.

This is an "all hands on deck" moment. If anyone is serious about getting Trump out of office, they need to be ready to vote for the Dem nominee, full stop.