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Beatification Candidate |
I live downtown.... Even right turns on green can be difficult to manage with pedestrians, bikes, scooters and such travelling at different speeds. https://www.wbez.org/stories/r...1b-8621-5c2ed17c495b
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Has Achieved Nirvana |
No kidding. We only go downtown a few times a year; a couple of Mr wtg's doctors are at Northwestern. When we're leaving we head west on Huron and have to make a right onto Michigan Ave. Always interesting, especially as pedestrians (occasionally with dogs) and bicyclists often cross streets against the lights. Quelle nightmare.
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| Foregoing Practicing to Post Minor Deity  |
Here in NYC it would be a nightmare if right on red were allowed. Lately turns on green have been modified, giving pedestrians a walk signal several seconds before drivers get their green (“pedestrian head start”) and it’s wonderful. You wouldn’t believe how many impatient drivers just don’t want to give pedestrians a chance. They installed one of these a block away from me, where you prayed you could cross the street and not get run over.
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| (self-titled) semi-posting lurker Minor Deity  |
The other thing is that it’s confusing to have the law be so different from one city to another. I think it should be illegal across the country d just for consistency. After all, patience is a virtue and all that.
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Has Achieved Nirvana |
Right turn on red has become a "right". The requirement to stop before turning in unknown or ignored. Was part of a bunch leaving a concert Saturday night in Tucson that managed to avoid a car turning right into people when the light changed.
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Minor Deity |
You wouldn't want to make it illegal nation wide, one size doesn't fit all. In NH it's legal to turn right on red after stopping and it's the most sane thing ever. There are no where near the number of pedestrians up here, and the busy or dangerous intersections are clearly marked "no right turn on red". It was not legal in NYC and that was mostly sensible. A city of 116K (Manchester, NH) cannot be measured against a metropolis of ~9 million (NYC).
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| (self-titled) semi-posting lurker Minor Deity |
Bernard, I get what you're saying, but there's no downside to making right-n-red illegal across the board. Well, I mean people will have to wait at a light in areas where it may feel unnecessary. That's it. Whereas, the downside to the current inconsistency is that accidents are more likely to happen, and those accidents frequently involve pedestrians. If making some people wait "unnecessarily" reduces accidents and injuries across the board, wouldn't it be worth it? I guess I just don't have faith in the average driver. People don't do well with nuance, and the right-on-red law requires paying attention to nuance. 
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| Has Achieved Nirvana |
I don't think a universal ban of right-on-red will solve the problem. You can't legislate away stupid and careless. The issue is drivers who ignore the conditions around them and don't apply common sense to their driving. Heck, there are already rules in place that give pedestrians right-of-way and those are ignored all the time. There are bicyclists who ignore traffic signals and other rules that apply to them. I really like the pedestrian head start that RP described. Other strategies like that might help reduce the number of injured pedestrians.
Neither do I, which is why I no longer bicycle, even out here in the suburbs. And based on my experience as both a pedestrian and a driver, I take an extremely defensive posture and assume that anyone on the road has a high potential to do stupid and crazy stuff.
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| (self-titled) semi-posting lurker Minor Deity |
Unfortunately!
Yes indeed.  I also agree re the pedestrian head start, we *really* need that on campus here.
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| Unrepentant Dork Gadfly  |
We have right turn on right (after a stop) here in Ontario. In Toronto I never found it an issue as a pedestrian at intersections. As a driver in Toronto (which I don’t do often) I rarely turn right on a red because I don’t want to endanger pedestrians. I would be incredibly frustrated if they made the right turn on a red illegal because I live in rural Ontario (MOST of Ontario is rural) in a very car-centric society. About 90% of the time when I’m sitting at a red there are zero pedestrians. Half the time there aren’t even cars to wait for. It makes sense to have the law in rural areas. However, this law is province wide here. I find it more difficult in the US when I’m not sure what the rule is since it changes from place to place.
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| (self-titled) semi-posting lurker Minor Deity |
This is the big problem IMO... And even though there are intersections where there are signs posted saying "no turn on red," people seem not to see them and just assume right-on-red is allowed at all intersections. Maybe instead of marking only those "no turn on red" intersections, the rule could be no turn on red *unless* there's a small sign of some sort? Then maybe the assumption would shift?
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| Foregoing Practicing to Post Minor Deity |
Maybe Canadian drivers are just more polite. 
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| Minor Deity |
IMO, one major downside to making right-on-red universally illegal is the nanny aspect of it. In many areas of the country, it defies reason. Another is slowing down traffic in non-metropolitan areas. There are several spots here where, if the right lane was prevented from moving on red, there'd be bottlenecks. I think we have to see some stats on the link between inconsistency and accident frequencies. If we're going to conjecture, I think a reasonable argument could be made that having right-on-red is safer in many areas because someone approaching a red light with the intention of turning is more cautious and more alert to what's going on in the right of ways. They are not as likely to mindlessly put the gas down when the light turns green. Pure conjecture, but that's my experience. I would note that you said, "'right-on-red' law requires paying attention." Hm. Yes, I hear you on trust. I make it a habit to watch Youtube compilations of car accidents now and then just to remind myself that anything can happen. Keeps me from becoming complacent on the road.
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| Has Achieved Nirvana |
On a related note, leading vs trailing left turn arrow. I heard about this years ago and wondered why more places don't do trailing left turn arrows. It makes so much sense to me, but I don't think it's a convention in very many areas.
Talk about confusing....imagine driving in Tempe and a different convention than an out-of-town driver is accustomed to is used at an intersection. Then they go through the intersection at another time of day and the same traffic signal behaves differently.. Eek! https://www.azcentral.com/stor...rn-signals/71633538/
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| Beatification Candidate |
Let's not forget about the walkers and such that ignore the "don't walk" when the drivers have a green turn arrow. Or those that saunter through the very end of a light change not clearing the intersection before the green light for cross traffic...
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