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Bloomberg says elderly Americans should be denied treatment for chronic and fatal conditions
18 February 2020, 12:30 PM
AmandaBloomberg says elderly Americans should be denied treatment for chronic and fatal conditions
(Unless they're billionaires, of course.)
95 years of age in his example, but it's a slippery slope.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/p...ricans/#47172e59632e
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The most dangerous word in the language is "obvious"
18 February 2020, 12:53 PM
wtgI highly recommend the book Being Mortal.
And this associated PBS Frontline show.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/being-mortal/We need to talk about this.
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We are all visitors to this time, this place. We are just passing through. Our purpose here is to observe, to learn, to grow, to love… and then we return home. - Australian Aboriginal proverb
Bazootiehead-in-training
18 February 2020, 01:15 PM
NinaThere are significant costs associated with many late in life medical interventions, particularly surgeries. It should be an individual decision, not left up to the government. But doctors shouldn't sugar-coat the potential outcomes.
My 2c!
EDIT: and by "costs," I'm not referring to monetary cost. I'm thinking about side effects, blood clots, anesthesia-induced psychoses or dementia, palliative care putting people into zombie-like states, etc. I wonder how many people aged 95+ already have DNRs in place.
18 February 2020, 01:19 PM
wtgExactly, Nina. The stories that Gawande tells in his book are heartbreaking.
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We are all visitors to this time, this place. We are just passing through. Our purpose here is to observe, to learn, to grow, to love… and then we return home. - Australian Aboriginal proverb
Bazootiehead-in-training
18 February 2020, 07:46 PM
AmandaI sure wish it were available in text instead of only in a video. 54 minutes is more than I have however important and moving it is.
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The most dangerous word in the language is "obvious"
18 February 2020, 09:36 PM
NinaAgreed! I hate the trend of just putting up a video instead of writing out a news story. I don't want to dedicate that much time, I can read faster than the video, and I can jump ahead.
18 February 2020, 10:32 PM
QuirtEvansI forget what percentage of a person’s lifetime medical expenses occur in the last two years of life, but it’s very large.
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We are all visitors to this time, this place. We are just passing through. Our purpose here is to observe, to learn, to grow, to love… and then we return home. - Australian Aboriginal proverb
Bazootiehead-in-training
19 February 2020, 05:30 AM
jon-nycHere’s his quote:
“If you show up with prostate cancer and you’re 95, we should say ‘go and enjoy, have a nice day, live a long life.’ There’s no cure and we can’t do anything. If you’re a young person, we should do something about it,”
I don’t see that as some hard call to end treatment of chronic and fatal conditions at a certain age. I see it as a call for common sense at end-of-life treatment decisions that have very low probability of success.
Nobody gives lung transplants to 85 year olds dying of COPD.
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If you think looting is bad wait until I tell you about civil forfeiture.
19 February 2020, 09:46 AM
MikhailohI think it needs to be done in conjunction with the patient As I see it now, if I was told at 85 I had some fatal thing that stood no real chance of a cure but would ruin what time I had left I would refuse treatment. That may be because I have seen it happen.
My father in law could have had perhaps less time but more quality of life time had he stopped treatment.
At some point we as patients have to recognize, difficult as it may be, that we are mortal.
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"A mob is a place where people go to get away from their conscience" Atticus Finch
19 February 2020, 02:31 PM
Amandaquote:
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The most dangerous word in the language is "obvious"
19 February 2020, 02:32 PM
Amandaquote:
Originally posted by jon-nyc:
Here’s his quote:
“If you show up with prostate cancer and you’re 95, we should say ‘go and enjoy, have a nice day, live a long life.’ There’s no cure and we can’t do anything. If you’re a young person, we should do something about it,”
I don’t see that as some hard call to end treatment of chronic and fatal conditions at a certain age. I see it as a call for common sense at end-of-life treatment decisions that have very low probability of success.
Nobody gives lung transplants to 85 year olds dying of COPD.
Yeah, sure, all who dismiss this because the example he gave was so clearcut but I repeat what I said in my intro post that it's a (very) slippery slope.
What about people who are otherwise very healthy for their age and with a good chance of responding to treatment? And what about people in their 60s + or -?
Who (or what algorithm) might be making these decisions and what would their backgrounds be?
We all know how the younger one is the more ages (which to most of us here us seem quite liveable), appear to be the walking dead. (I dare say, most of those spouting "OK, Boomer" would be quite happy to eliminate that whole demographic!)
That is, until they themselves get older and "the arrow" moves ever upwards in their perspective of what "old" is?
It might be apt to amount to a financial cut off, rather than a real age/viability cut off.
Of course, all that said, such models of allocating medical care have long been floated in think tanks of public policy (ever heard of "Qalis"?).
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The most dangerous word in the language is "obvious"
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The most dangerous word in the language is "obvious"