I'm finally digging out from band camp, the start of school, and then the flooding, and I can finally think about posting this thread, which I've wanted to do for a while now. So LL#2 is a senior and starting to apply to colleges. I feel like our HS guidance dept does a terrible job when it comes to college - kids are pretty much on their own to figure it out and most of what I did for LL#1 I found out from other parents who had older kids. LL#1 was easy though - she had such specific requirements (had to have a neuroscience major, had to have a marching band with a front ensemble, and had to NOT be located in a city) that there were only like 4 schools that really met all her criteria. She applied and got into all 4 and went to the one she liked best. Easy peasy.

LL#2, on the other hand, wants to major in computer science or something computer-y, which pretty much opens up every single school in the nation.

He's a very bright kid -- strong grades, strong test scores, rigorous schedule but not the "cured cancer/olympic medalist/been doing research with a professor since I was 9" type that you need to be these days to get into a top 20 school. He's also kinda lazy and has managed to get his strong grades and test scores while doing the bare minimum of work. He's not the self motivated type -- he'll choose watching youtube or playing video games over doing anything productive for as long as possible -and I've had to prod him every step of the way on this college thing. That said, when he needs to buckle down, he does, so I think (hope?) he'll be ok in college. Neither he nor I think a pressure-cooker super competitive environment is right for him though which is why he isn't considering any tippy top schools.

He's also hard of hearing but has refused to wear his hearing aids since middle school (he hates the way they make the world sound). He manages well academically and socially, but I do think he misses a lot of conversation and may come across as odd because he often doesn't respond to people because he doesn't hear them. (This will actually be relevant a bit later, I promise). We've also been dancing around a potential on-the-spectrum type diagnosis since he was in kindergarten, but because he manages quite well, we've never had him officially diagnosed. He has a lot of the signs though - does not like change or people, learned to read at like age 2, went through phases of obsession where he'd learn every fact there was to know about a topic and talk about it incessantly. and struggles to read people's emotions and social situations. He doesn't have a lot of close friends and the ones he does have he doesn't make a huge effort to see outside of school which probably makes them think he doesn't like them but he genuinely does care for them. Even with all that, overall, he is well liked and respected by both other kids and teachers - he's not one of the popular jock kids but he's not bullied or an outsider either. He's had a few girlfriends but again, because he doesn't read people very well and it isn't in his nature to make plans with people if he doesn't have to, the girls eventually got frustrated. He hasn't had a girlfriend in about a year now and I know it's bumming him out so that's actually a factor I worry about for him with college.

OK so onto the college search. He doesn't seem to have many specific criteria - he'd like a school in a city. He'd like to eventually get out of the US but he's nervous about the "sink or swim" nature that he's heard about re: international colleges, so maybe college in the US and study abroad/internship internationally? He likes music and is a talented player of many instruments. While he's in school, he'd like to form a rock band that gigs around casually so a school with a good music scene or a rock band club would be good. Maybe a minor in music technology/recording/audio type stuff would be nice as that is an interest of his but he doesn't want to major in it because job security. He's very politically liberal (he'd actually take offense at liberal, preferring socialist or communist) and he has thoughtful well argued points about pretty much any issue you ask him about - he would probably make a great political science major but again, job security -- even though he's really good at all the humanities, he's very practical and career focused and has no interest in majoring in any of that. I've only half jokingly laid down a no red states rule but honestly he would not fit well with the culture in a southern state. I'd like to not have to fly him anywhere so that kind of limits us to mid atlantic, new england, or the midwest (again, prefer no south for cultural reasons, but it's geographically ok). He doesn't have strong feelings about size but I think something super large might overwhelm him. Many of the schools he's looking at are techy-type schools which is great for his interests and his overall fit, but the gender ratio is horrible - like 2 guys for every girl or even worse. As I said above, the romance situation is weighing on him a bit and I'm really hoping he finds someone in college - stacking the odds like that won't help matters.

As far as majors go, he's thinking of applying as pure computer science, since that has gotten to be a really competitive major and hard to transfer into after the fact if you aren't admitted into it as an incoming freshman. But he might also like data science or cybersecurity - he's not sure. Some schools have an "undecided computing" type major that lets you try various fields out that he would consider doing. Some schools have things like computational social sciences where you basically use data science to address world problems which is something I personally think he'd be really good at and enjoy - seems like the perfect way to mix his political viewpoints with computer science. No matter what he picks, he's definitely more practical/career focused - he will want to do and apply, not theorize and research. A lot of the top notch programs (including Carnegie Mellon, which you guys mentioned before) are more research oriented and designed to churn out future PhDs not garden variety software engineers.

OK, I am running out of time before i have to leave so I will quickly list the colleges in the running right now that he will likely apply to -- I can come back and add more detail later. His top picks right now are:

U Pittsburgh - loves the city, programming school is really small and kinda new, but pretty well regarded, we are in state so affordable

RIT - great nerd culture, good rock scene, TERRIBLE gender ratio, kinda far outside the city and isolated ugly campus, home of the National Tech Institute of the Deaf which he qualifies for, so he'd get super cheap tuition and lots of support services for his hearing and the student body is used to dealing with hard of hearing people so he wouldn't stick out or have to feel weird asking people to repeat themselves etc.

Drexel - good balance of techy and not, good gender ratio, in the city and close to home, he doesn't like the very structured coop system that means he doesn't get summers off although I suspect he'll find the same situation at RIT, Northeastern, and some of the other coop schools.

U Delaware - a solid smallish state school - decent CS program, nice campus, not too far from home, likely to give good merit. Not in a city but there's an amtrak station on campus so it's easy enough to get to Philly or Baltimore.

Miami OH - I'm making him apply here because they'll give him tons of money and they are surprisingly well regarded in CS (they just placed 2nd in the nation above CMU and Stanford in an analysis of test scores for some standardized test given to entry level CS graduates) and they have a good data science program. But they are in small isolated town in a red state so he's pretty much not interested at all. They might be able to woo him with a strong enough merit offer or at the very least, he's hoping he can use their offer to bargain with other schools.

Champlain - a tiny school in vermont with highly regarded career focused CS programs. Might be too small or not challenging enough for him.

Northeastern - he likes boston, this seems like the best choice for career focused CS, but I am open to other boston schools if you have any suggestions. Their acceptance rate is like 5% so he may not get in. They have a cool official joint degree that combines music tech/recording and computer science.

WPI (Worcester Polytech) - close to boston, techy, maybe a bit small, traditionally more of an engineering but comp sci is apparently their largest major now. Working on improving the gender ratio. Has a unique and very group project focused curriculum which could be good or awful for him - he has traditionally hated group projects but then again, he's always been the smart kid doing all the work, so it might be different in a school where everyone is smart and actually cares about the class. WPI consistently gets reviews mentioning extraordinarily happy students.

Other schools maybe?

UVM - likes Burlington, maybe if Champlain is too small?

Ohio State - great city, but huge, far, and red state. I loved it when I went there, but I was a bit more self directed than I think he will be. It might swallow him up.

U Toronto - he loves Toronto but the school is huge and may not be the welcoming traditional college experience. Lots of reviews on the internet mention students are miserable.

McGill - I hear this is great, but he hates French for some reason so is reluctant to consider Montreal.

Schools in Europe - he is open to the idea. I was too, until Covid hit - now I'm worried bout travel restrictions, visas, etc. And of course, it's not the traditional coddling freshman experience. But it would position him well to live outside the US after graduating.

Anyhow, if you've managed to read this far, thank you! I'm looking for any feedback on any of the schools on his list or suggestions for other schools that might suit him....with Covid, visiting places has been hard and I'm overwhelmed with all the options. I feel like he has some good candidates, but I'm afraid we're overlooking something amazing. Thanks!

First of all, he sounds like my kinda kid.

My family is rife with un-diagnosed spectrum-y folks and one with a diagnosis. Honestly, I can't tell the difference between the one with the diagnosis and the rest of us. This doesn't mean that I don't believe the diagnosis. It just confirms my suspicion that the rest of us could get one if we needed it to get access to services.

He sounds like a cross between my son and my oldest grandson, Stud Muffin. My son was an early reader and a strong student, he plays a lot of instruments, and he was in a rock band in high school. He's in a band again now, in his mid-thirties, and I love this for him. I've told them all that they'll be happier if they leave room in their lives for creative pursuits, and I think they've found this to be true. I think he's had a little easier time socially than LL#2, though. Stud Muffin struggles more there, and he has the tendency to develop an overwhelming interest and talk about it a lot. (I'm his Mimi, so I just make sure I've got a cup of coffee and some time when we chat, but this probably will not work for girlfriends. On the flip side, if he finds someone who shares one of his obsessions, she will be The One.)

As for LL#2's college choice, I can say that the University of Florida was a good choice for my son in many ways. At the time he went there, it was #25 in engineering schools, so it was a solid choice in his field. (It's #45 now, so Gator Engineering has had a tough twenty years. And it's very startling to realize that it's been that long since my son, who's about to be 36, started thinking about colleges.) UF was also aggressively courting academically strong kids at that time, so his undergrad degree was basically free. This has obvious financial advantages but, speaking as someone who was in the same situation, there's a lot of pride in knowing that you earned your way. Florida obviously doesn't fit your criteria, but something like UF in the Northeast or Mid-Atlantic might be a good choice.

Big state schools have real advantages, especially in STEM fields. They tend to have professors with big research programs that have the kind of grants that support great labs. My son worked in one of his professor's labs as an undergrad, as well as teaching a lab. These opportunities may or may not have been there for him at a smaller school, so that's a question I'd ask. My nephew is at the University of South Carolina now, which is much lower-rated than UF, but he had an internship and a NASA research grant by the end of his freshman year. I get the impression that he'll be able to work in his professor's lab all the way through. I always wonder whether a school that's all or mostly undergrad that's touting itself as a good place to go for STEM subjects can really back up that claim. Well-funded private schools like the Ivies, MIT, Georgia Tech, RIT, Rochester, and so on? Yes. I'm sure they offer those opportunities. But I'd look at the funding that professors at smaller and less well-known programs attract and at the presence of a graduate program as a proxy for those kinds of opportunities. The best faculty are going to go where they can staff well-equipped labs with strong graduate students who can help them with their research programs.

Having said all that, I don't know much about the schools on your list. I notice that Penn State is not on it. Is there a reason for that? I don't know much about it, either, but it's a big state school where you'd get in-state tuition. The flagship universities in nearby states might also be worth considering. The option of an "undecided computing" major seems like a big plus, because there are so many ways you can go with computer-oriented majors.

Keep us posted as you search!

Big state schools also tend to have a better male-female balance, and a better chance at a dating life is nothing to sneeze at.

Thanks! I am back for a few minutes but have to run again so I can respond more later. But I wanted to say that even though Mr. Lisa and I both went there, Penn State is not on his list for a few reasons. It's huge, it's in an isolated town at least 3 hours from any sizeable city, and its squarely in the middle of the reddest part of PA. The honors program would help make the school smaller (I was in it back in the day), but it has gotten super competitive and requires like 9 supplemental essays totaling up to about 10,000 words to even apply - no one has time for that! Pitt is also a state school and is much better suited to what he wants as far as size and location, so he's going with Pitt for our "state school" choice. PA state schools overall kinda suck costwise though - instate costs to attend either Pitt or PSU run about $35K/year and they don't really give much merit aid so our in state tuition is not really cheap like you find in other states. UDel and MiamiOH are both out of state state schools and likely to come in far cheaper after merit aid - at least they did for LL#1 and LL#2 has better grades and test scores.

Those are all important points.

My son started in the honors program at UF, and it had some benefits early on. The advising program was more personal and honors students could register for classes early. Honors classes in the core subjects were smaller. He took some honors-only classes in subjects like the history of rock music that he enjoyed. He dropped out of it after two or three years, because graduating with honors required an honors thesis and he had enough on his plate.

Muffin did the honors program at NYU and wrote a thesis that I, as a non-specialist in her field, thought could have passed for a master's thesis. It wasn't the best experience for her, though, because her honors thesis advisor was not good. Among other things, she insulted Muffin's writing. This seems pedagogically wrong, as insults are unprofessional, but also, it seems just factually wrong. I read a lot of student writing, and I think I am being unbiased when I say that her work is uncommonly good. The flip side of my advice to try to find a place that will attract talented professors is to caution you that many of them have an inflated opinion of themselves that doesn't translate well to working with undergrads. But you probably already knew that.

Neither Muffin nor her brother had to jump through the kind of hoops you describe. (Nine supplemental essays??? There would have to be a tremendous benefit to the honors program beyond bragging rights before I'd want to do that.)

How about some of the schools near DC? They're close by and they are often easy hires because their program is known by government types. It's not surprising that the area around DC has some of the lowest unemployment, and highest pay in the nation for white collar jobs.

Also re: coops -- they can be invaluable, but aren't mandatory. I would highly recommend LL#2 consider some form of (paid) internship or summer experience. You can get that formally via a coop, but you can often just get that set up. CS coop students are often in high demand for internships, which does make things easier. My son did a coop program (required a 5 years to BS degree commitment) but that's how he got his job today. You don't need to be an official coop'er, but it usually makes it much easier to get an internship, which in turn will usually turn into a full-time job if your kid wants that.

You might take a look at Belmont University in Nashville. Good CS program, great music - especially music business and music technology - school and a thriving music scene.

Lisa as I read your initial post with great interest, I kept thinking University of Michigan hits all the marks. I happen to have gone to school there, but it really is a great fit for all you describe. And Ann Arbor is a wonderful,very liberal town with a terrific music scene. He could look into their Residential College(I'm an alum), which is basically a small liberal arts college set in the middle of a great university campus. You get best of both worlds.

My daughter mathed up perfectly at Pitzer, one of the Claremont colleges. California. It’s another country. Harvey mudd is part of the 4 college consortium that also includes Pomona and Claremont McKenna. Great schools . Harvey Mudd is the tech school and it looks like it was built with LEGO’s. Look at it.

J

Also Northeastern is a great schoo. I have degrees from Vassar, Harvard, Yale and Norheastern and it is the best school I attended.

Northeastern is a great school, and we loved it when we visited. It also has a very large number of interdisciplinary programs that combine with computer science.

But it's huge. Almost 30,000 students.

If you liked RIT, look at the University of Rochester. Also very good, also very nerdy, but with a very smart nerdy vibe. Lots of engineering types, and they have a fairly new data science program that's all the rage. Full disclosure ... one Quirtlet goes/went there (it's a long story).

I am just a fly on the wall, as all my kids are either out of college or clear of a criminal charges.

Ironically, the one with no degree probably makes more money than the other two that do have them.

The lowest paid, highest performer academically, is about to get his Masters, along with all the debt..

I. don't have any personal knowledge (hence opinion) about any of the schools you listed but I certainly congratulate you on your in-depth research on both the schools (including inquiring here) and astute knowledge of your kids.

Finances having motivated our decisions most, I did scarcely any research on the atmosphere and other advantages/disadvantages of any schools. The main thing for us was that they go free (or nearly so) and that it be as good a school as possible.

Also wanted to be sure son #2 was reasonably far from home, to get needed psychological distance.

I agree with your comments about Penn State. (Can't imagine why anyone from out of state chooses it unless they're very flush). What a shame about the honors college's changed application process!

Also agree with your comments about State College. Can't imagine why so many seniors long to retire here unless they're football nuts considering the hospital, airport and distance to get "anywhere".

One difference - I think you can get to Pittsburgh in about 2 1/2 hrs - likewise, Baltimore. (Philly DOES take longer - but you must know that.)

I get to know some students by whom I hire for yard etc. help, and one (really good kid/friend) lately just adores it even though he's from Maryland. Think he's very into the frat scene but not for partying (or not primarily so).

He's very smart and focused, with ambitions for areas he's talented in (lobbying?). The dating issue must not be a big deal for him as he is what we used to call "studworthy" and I gather, a chick magnet.

Fraternities (which I used to have a bias against) I now see can be a big plus for job seeking - present and future. (My own younger son got a leg up job hunting from a frat brother - help getting his resume looked at, anyhow, which resulted in a great job.)

Likewise, with my present helper, now a senior. Seems to be a special benefit in the age of Covid with its many limitations.

Which reminds me, I'm kind of disappointed and shocked to learn that neither faculty nor students are obliged to get vaccinated at PSU. That's a drawback for the more cautious of both constituents (fac and students), and also, of course, for us residents.

We're all kind of waiting for the fit to hit the shan, Delta-wise, since the kids are back. (There have been many new cases since then and rather a controversy about it, with political overtones. Much discussed in our "Nextdoor" site from which a number of comments have been deleted by the admins there - including mine. Unclear why.

And re the "color" of the town, I gather it's much bluer than not though as soon you set foot outside it, yes, it reddens dramatically. State College is really an island, politically.