Can anyone here help me with my piano technique? I could ask at PW, but .... well, I'm more comfortable with y'all!

I have not had a teacher in almost 2 years, eventually (assuming covid doesn't take my job) I plan to go back to having a teacher (if I can find someone) but for now I'm on my own. But I have a few pieces where I can play most of it fairly well, but there will be spots that I just can't get. The piece I'm working on right now is one of those.

Here is the passage, I've labeled it B in this photo, it's measures 41-56 (plus the last two RH notes of measure 45). This repeats three different times in the piece, and in the video below, I play it progressively worse each time!



Here is the video, cued up to start at the first time the theme appears.


Second time:


Third time:


If no one here has time (interest, ability) to help, I'll ask at PW. But thanks in advance to anyone who can help!!

Oooo - I'll take a shot since I need to think about something else other than the accident!

I'm far from a qualified teacher...but I have spent the last 3 years as an instructor for the high school marching and indoor drumline - they brought me on initially to teach the mostly non-piano players how to play the synth parts. So my only teaching experience involves combining quick and dirty piano instruction with a whole lot of re-working and modifying the music til it's playable at their level. So take that for what it's worth (which isn't much, LOL!)

The computer won't blow your video up to full screen so I can't see exactly what fingers you are using. I would lead into that part (last 2 notes on the first line) with my 5 then 4 of my right hand (you have 4 then 5 marked, which I can't figure out unless you are doing it with your left hand??).

Then in part B, every one of the 3 note chords I would play with 1, 2, and 3, using 5 on the high A flat. It looks to me that you are hitting the top note in the chords with your 4th finger and most people's 4th and 5th fingers aren't strong enough to play that much alternating repetition smoothly, especially while trying to reach the bottom notes in the chord. Alternating 3 and 5 should give you a lot more control.

Using the 3rd finger on the top note of the chord may require a bigger hand than you have, especially that 3rd set (the Aflat/C/F) which hurts me a bit and I have very large hands for a woman. However, I think it's the kind of hurt that for me would just require practice to build up strength and get used to the position and then it would be fine. And honestly, it is probably also hard for you to get that 3rd chord set using 1, 2, and 4 - that's got to be an uncomfortable hand position.

So I would suggest trying to play all those chords with 1, 2, and 3 and see if that is doable and if so, if it is any easier for you. If not, and you'd like other suggestions, let me know and I'll let you know what I would do to simplify it if it was one of my synth players who couldn't reach it (probably cut out one of the 3 notes in whatever chords the kid could not play but I'd have to play around with it to see what would sound most like the original). The alternative would be to only play the top note of the bottom octave and use the left hand to hit the lowest notes in the chord but I'm not sure that would be any easier and you'd lose the low end.

Back when I was a classical piano student with a strict teacher, I would have been appalled at not playing the music exactly as written, but after 3 years of working with high school band students who are expected to learn parts that are written on about this level (or even harder) while working off "that half year of piano lessons I had in first grade" which is why they got put on the synth part in the first place, I have learned that sometimes modifying the music is the only way!

I cannot see your posture since your body is wholly outside of the video's frame. But I'm going to hazard a guess and suggest you lean more to the left when you play that "B" passage (distribute more weight to the left buttock than the right). This should allow you to maintain a more perpendicular forearm-to-keyboard angle for the right hand during that passage. You can return to your usual posture right after that passage.

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I cannot see your posture since your body is wholly outside of the video's frame.

Ax, I didn't want anyone to see my old ratty jammies!

I will try your suggestion, I hadn't thought about a solution based on my whole body...

Lisa, thankyouthankyouthankyou! I'm writing a response to you, stay tuned....

Ok, Lisa, thank you again for all these comments!! And thank you for zeroing in on fingering, that is definitely a key (if not the key) issue.

So first, I am playing 124 for those RH chords throughout, and then playing the top note w/ RH 5 (pinkie). I don't think I can play 123, I just tried and it feels like an uncomfortable stretch. But I will go and try it again....

So, next, re the two lead in notes in measure 40: because 124 is the most comfortable shape for those RH chords, I settled on 4, 5 (measure 40) but I don't think I consistently play it that way. I think I would do better if I played it the same way every time, regardless of which fingering. But anyway, my original rationale for play 4 and then 5 (rather than the other way around) was that doing so puts my RH in a really good position to then play the first chord in measure 41. Whereas, playing 5, 4, then I have to get over all those black keys to get into the first chord of measure 41.

But anyway, yes, my intention was indeed to play measure 40, the Ab w/ 4 and the G w/ 5 and then be in position to play 124 for the first chord of measure 41, and 5 for the high Ab. The trick to playing RH 4, 5 there is that the RH does a lateral shift from 4 down to 5... But maybe it's not workable. If you have time, play it and see what you think.

Also, I'm really curious about taking those block chords w/ fingers 123, is that comfy for you?

Anyway, re those leading notes in measure 40, I think now that I've been playing it more, playing 5, 4, and then 124 for the chord isn't as clunky as it used to be. Plus I can take a breath there and it won't be horrible. But I'm not sure...

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It looks to me that you are hitting the top note in the chords with your 4th finger and most people's 4th and 5th fingers aren't strong enough to play that much alternating repetition smoothly, especially while trying to reach the bottom notes in the chord. Alternating 3 and 5 should give you a lot more control.

edited Nope, I'm playing the top Ab with my pinkie, and I'm playing the chords 124... I can't get 4 onto that Ab, my hand's not big enough! Oops, I can't read! You're right, I'm play the top note of the chord with 4.

edited But, as to the rest of your comment so since I'm playing the chord 124, and then the Ab with 5, I'm essentially alternating 4 and 5, now I see what you're saying, so maybe that is the crux of my problem.... I will try 123 again....

Also, maybe I will get Mr. SK to record me from right above my hand to see if an aerial view (??) would elicit more suggestions...

Ok, to your other comment here -- namely, not playing the music as written. I am a musical heathen, so I am super ok with leaving out notes etc. Except, when it comes to Einaudi, the bass notes are the lifeblood (also, I love the bass on my piano) so I don't want to cut out that bottom octave in the left hand (plus, that's super easy to play, my left hand has better reach than my right, I think because of my past experience with classical guitar). But if I could figure out a way to make the RH job easier, I would... the problem is the pinkie... it's clunky and my hand is stiff, and I think that's at least part of what makes that pinkie note jump out in an unpleasant way.

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Originally posted by ShiroKuro:

Also, I'm really curious about taking those block chords w/ fingers 123, is that comfy for you?

The 3rd set (the Aflat/C/F) is a little uncomfortable for me, but I think it would be fine with a little practice. The others are fine. But again, my hands are pretty big for a girl, LOL! (To give you an idea, I can reach a 9th easily and a 10th with some stretching). And if you are playing them 1,2,3 then you can go 5/4/123 for the notes that lead into part B and it works perfectly. I'm not quite following what you are doing with the 4/5 fingering but I get that if you want to hit the block chord top note with 4, you need to be on 5 for the immediately preceding G. Again, though, going 5/4/123 works the simplest if you can get your hand to cooperate.

I'm getting lost trying to quote your reply, but basically, you are doing what I thought which is playing the top note of the CHORDS with 4 then the very top Aflat with 5. (I see you edited your post to say that!) And yes, I think the crux of the issues you are having is that repeated alternation between 4 (with the other 2 notes) then 5. Those fingers aren't strong to begin with and they fatigue very quickly and that's a whole lot of repetition. I'd really try to do 1,2,3 for the chords if you can. It may feel weird at first and unfortunately, you may just not be able to do it due to the size of your hands, but if you can master it, it will be so much more controlled than the 4/5 alternating will ever be. Alternatively, you could just try doing a lot of finger exercises to try to strengthen and work on that 4/5 combo, but the 4th finger will always be anatomically weaker and there's only so much you can do.

Just to see, try just alternating the F and the Aflat (the top note on the chords and the higher A flat) with your right hand. Play it over and over with 4/5 then try it with 3/5. I think you will quickly see how much more control over your pinkie you have with the 3/5 approach.You are blaming your pinkie for being clunky, but I suspect it is really the 4th finger causing the problems.

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Ok, to your other comment here -- namely, not playing the music as written. I am a musical heathen, so I am super ok with leaving out notes etc. Except, when it comes to Einaudi, the bass notes are the lifeblood (also, I love the bass on my piano) so I don't want to cut out that bottom octave in the left hand (plus, that's super easy to play, my left hand has better reach than my right, I think because of my past experience with classical guitar). But if I could figure out a way to make the RH job easier, I would... the problem is the pinkie... it's clunky and my hand is stiff, and I think that's at least part of what makes that pinkie note jump out in an unpleasant way.

If you want, I am happy to play around and see if I can make the right hand a little easier.

Lisa this is sooooooooooooooooooo helpful!!!!

I will try the 123 fingering...

Also, re leaving out a note... what is the most important note in those chords? The one the 2 plays? Because that's the one that changes.... I've played it long enough that it will be hard to leave out a note. Oddly, I bet it would be easier to switch fingerings than leave out a note. But I will try both this evening.

Also, I'll see if I can get a recording of my fancy (har) 4 down to 5 lateral move....

I would also like to see a video of Einaudi's hands...

I play pieces by George Winston every now and then, and I think I was maybe working on his Canon (which is in Cmaj, ugh) and struggling with something, and came across a video of him playing. Well, the guy's hands are massive! Of course he play that stuff that is impossible for me!!

And my hands are not exactly small... But as I said, my LH is more limber than my right.

Anyway, you have given me so much to work with, thank you!!!

OK, I just putzed around for a minute (Mr. Lisa is on a conference call and I'm sure didn't appreciate me just repeating the right hand over and over again, LOL!). Playing with the 4th finger isn't what I would do naturally, but it is easier than I thought it would be. However, I find it extremely hard/impossible to keep my pinkie notes consistent when using my 4th finger as the top note of the chord - I seem to strike them with different intensities and there are noticeable volume changes. It is much easier to get a consistent sound on those top notes with the 123 fingering on the chords.

If I was going to have one of my synth kids drop a note from the chord, I would chose the bottom one to omit. I don't like it as much without those lower notes - it isn't as full - but it makes it much easier. I might even have them try to just drop the low Aflats in the 1st and 3rd set and see if they could manage the Bflat in the second set - that's basically a triad chord and should be doable with 123 fingering for even kids with small hands. And the low Bflat adds a flavor that I wouldn't want to lose if I didn't have to. The only thing about dropping the low Aflat is that you still have to play it as part of the single notes in the 4th measure of the set so you have to be prepared to get there with your thumb. It seemed doable and sounded ok but I would still suggest you see if you can get the 123 fingering to work before dropping notes.

Also, keep in mind that it is easier for me to be ruthless about simplifying parts and dropping notes because my kids have a whole marching band/front ensemble with them - they generally aren't the solo instrument. You're going to notice a dropped note on a piece like you are playing a lot more than you'd notice me making even major modifications to a synth part that's playing along side 70 other instruments. Even in parts where the synth is a feature (we had a very complicated synth feature last fall that was supposed to sound like a plucked harp and it really stuck out over the rest of the band), there's usually other instruments playing chords behind them and that helps to fill out any harmonies that I need to chop. That synth harp feature I mentioned earlier was originally written as a right hand melody with left hand chords but the right hand was so fast and complex there was no way I could play it at tempo, let alone one of my less experienced kids. I had to kill the left hand chords and rewrite the melody so that the left and right hands took turns -- and even then it was really hard for the kid playing, who is one of the better players and actually takes piano lessons currently. (TANGENTIAL RANT) People who write synth parts for marching band shows are rarely pianists and generally don't have any idea what is and isn't actually possible for a human hand to do on a piano. I have seen plenty of one-handed chords with spreads of almost an octave and a half. Why? Because they take the mallet parts and just slap them on a piano line. Anyhoo, I digress. (END TANGENTIAL RANT)

Don't take this personally but.....

Your right hand isn't moving much. I'm assuming this means that you're trying to play those chords by moving (only) your fingers. This can be really fatiguing. My advice (disclaimer, I'm not a piano teacher or even a particularly adept player) is to allow your hand to help.... let it rock back and forth as you play chord and then that Ab. Exaggerate it a lot at first, to get the feel of it. Let your hand and arm movements help your fingers out, if that makes sense.

I find that for a lot of those repetitive things (happens a lot in more classically-based music like Haydn, Scarlatti, etc.) it's easy to sort of lock your hand and fingers, but a bit of movement helps a lot.

Hope that makes sense!

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Playing with the 4th finger isn't what I would do naturally, but it is easier than I thought it would be. However, I find it extremely hard/impossible to keep my pinkie notes consistent when using my 4th finger as the top note of the chord - I seem to strike them with different intensities and there are noticeable volume changes. It is much easier to get a consistent sound on those top notes with the 123 fingering on the chords.

Lisa, yes, I'm sure this is my problem. Getting that chord 124 isn't bad and in and of itself, it fits my hand just fine. It's the repeating and alteration of 4 in the chord and then 5 for the top note. Anyway, I will try 123.

Nina,

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Don't take this personally but.....

Not at all!!! This is exactly the kind of info/advice I wanted! This is also why I posted this question here rather than at PW, because I might be offended coming from someone I don't know!

Anyway, you are right, I am super stiff in this passage. Also, I'm stiff through the whole recording. I was really hoping to get a recording to share this weekend, and I think I played it 8 times in a row... When I listen to my playing as compared to other recordings I've shared, I sound very stiff. Overall, but also I am sure it's especially troublesome in this passage.

I will play it hands separately a little bit and try some relaxed arm/hand movement and then try it HT again.

Thank you Lisa and Nina!!

If anyone else has thoughts/advice, please share! As long as it's not, give up the pi ano, you loser!

I’m not a piano teacher either, but I just tried playing it, and I used the 123 fingering (like lisa said) and I had to shift my upper body to the left (like ax said) to make it comfortable to play, and I rotated my wrist back and forth for those chord notes, so the wrist movement is playing the notes instead of the fingers. (Like nina said). For me, there was more rotation in the direction where the thumb lifts up, than the other way (it helps push the pinkie Into that note). But I haven’t had a lesson in ages, so not sure my advice is correct!

Ok, edit, there is at least one spot near the end of that passage where it was easier to play 124, not 123.

Thanks Jodi!

I’m just getting to the piano now after a little too much “excitement” (see my scary dog story).

Ok, I think all of your comments are helping!!

I don’t know if I can change to playing the chords 123 though... I think the trick is to work on some hand/arm movement and use that to make up for the problems with alternating 4 and 5.

I made a video (Mr. SK helped!) it maybe 1 minute long, but you can see why I’m doing with the two lead in notes ... and also my feeble attempt to rotate my hand more. That will be the focus of practice tomorrow!

Practice video measures 40-56 only:

I finally had a chance to watch your new video.

If you are going to keep the 4/5 combo (and it looks to me like your hands could make the 3/5 but I totally get it if you are already used to the 4/5 and don't want to change), I would add a book of finger exercises to your repertoire and start spending some time every day on them. Growing up, my piano teacher worked me through Czerny and Hanon (I always had at lesson books from one or the other, if not both at the same time), but I recently heard good things about finger strengthening exercises by a guy named Erno Dohnanyi. I took a look at one I found online and it looks like it would be a GREAT thing to practice for reinforcing the kind of movement you need for the passage you are trying to learn.

http://www.kotta.info/media/26/2652/m1_tn_f.jpg


I'm actually intrigued enough that I might order the whole book of his exercises -- it's been a LONG time since I put any time into basic rudiments like this and I'm sure I could use the work!

Thanks for watching the other video Lisa! I might Re the fingering, I might try to take the chords as 123 again, but it's very uncomfortable for fingers 2&3. And, I've been trying to use a little more arm/hand movement/rotation, and it seems like that is helping.

I also tried playing the chords without the F (so the fingering is then 12 and then 5 on the Ab), and although that makes it easier to play, I don't like how it sounds, so I decided not to do that.

One thing I might do though, is leave out the last Ab in each measure (so instead of 6 eighth notes it would be 4 eighth notes and one quarter note), somehow that seems to make it easier to play smoothly and quietly... I don't know, that's kind of a rhythmic change so I haven't decided yet.

Re

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Dohnanyi

When I took lessons in Japan, my teacher gave me a single sheet, it might have been this very page! I need to see if I can find it, I'm sure I have it somewhere.

As I recall, I hated doing the exercises! I much preferred Hanon (and I never did more than one or two Czerny etude).

In any case, maybe I can return to Dohnanyi, I suspect a little bit would go a long way!