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| Musicology and Racism | Login/Join |
| Pinta & the Santa Maria Has Achieved Nirvana  |
And furthermore....  I know Jews who refuse to listen to Mahler, because he was an anti-Semite. I also know Jews who love Mahler. And of course, given the nature of musical performance, there are a gajillion Jews who've made a living as professional musicians performing or conducting sacred music--and in some cases, writing it. Were they triggered? I doubt it. Surely we can rise above some things and see the beauty of a piece of art independent of the political leanings of its creator. | |||
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Minor Deity |
But what about a dancer, Nina? That's the artist I see as most akin to an athlete. Or is the choreographer the one that you see as an artist in this case?
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| Minor Deity |
I do see dancers as artists, but I'm on the fence about most athletes, honestly. I'm not sure why. I think I see art as direct (or fairly direct) emotional expression. The aim of sports are to defeat the other player(s) while remaining within the rules of the athletic activity. Some athletes, and Jordan was one of them, are so good that they could win the game while having a dancer's expressiveness. I think most of them, though, are focused on putting the ball or puck where it needs to go. Athletes have a very real kind of genius, but it is genius of movement and teamwork and the other things associated with athletics. Is this the same thing the same thing as artistic genius. Maybe in some cases. Slow-motion films of Jordan playing would have to look a lot like slow-motion films of Baryshnikov dancing.
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| "I've got morons on my team." Mitt Romney Minor Deity  |
I have no issue with athlete versus artist. I think arguing about it is a distraction from this issue of identity power politics. As to why Pete Rose isn't in the Hall of Fame, that's not because a group of people a century into the future decided that he was reprehensible according to the enlightened mores of 2080. He was blacklisted according to the mores of his own time (gambling). We can argue about the details of his case, but it's not the same as deciding that Schenker's musical ideas are disgusting manifestations of Whiteness. Heck, maybe the good folks of 2100 will decide that every human who ate meat in the past deserves cancellation! Pull their statues down! Discard their species-ist ideas about ... oh, physics. | |||
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Minor Deity |
Yes. Jf
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| Minor Deity |
Eric Clapton has been as important in my life as Beethoven has been to many of you. I recently discovered years ago he went on a racist rant against black immigration to England. Very ugly stuff and infuriating given how much he has borrowed from a black music like blues and reggae. Looking further into it, I discovered he later apologized and blamed it on drink or drugs he was struggling with. His rant was so awful I still have not decided whether the apology is sufficient. Have not listened to him since discovering this. Jf
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Has Achieved Nirvana |
He left videotape. Singers leave audiotape and videotape. Are singers not artists? Are actors and actresses not artists? They don't leave anything more tangible than an athlete leaves. You have a bias against athletes, because you don't believe athletes are artists. But, when you drill down and try to come up with a dividing line, you wind up demonstrating that it's an artificial distinction. | |||
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| czarina Has Achieved Nirvana  |
I think Nina has already rebutted these points quite well. As did Mary Anna.
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| Foregoing Practicing to Post Minor Deity  |
Wait a minute, Nina. I thought Mahler was himself Jewish. Or am I hopelessly confused? Maybe you were thinking of Wagner.
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| Has Achieved Nirvana |
Ah, I assume you mean this part:
You see what you choose to see. As far as the competitive part goes, in many sports, you are not competing directly against a competitor. You're competing against yourself. Golf is a prime example. And, if you want to say, well, you're still keeping score, how do you explain sports where there is only a subjective score? Gymnastics? Rhythmic gymnastics? Or, even a better example, ice dancing, where they are explicitly prohibited from employing ever-more-difficult routines? And how about chess? There's no art in that, either? You have quite an artificial definition of artistry, but I suppose that people who view themselves as artists have a bias in favor the particular form of artistry they perform. | |||
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| Pinta & the Santa Maria Has Achieved Nirvana |
rp, you're 100% correct. I had a senior moment. Yes, I meant Wagner. This is how rumors get started.... eeek! Thanks for pointing that out.  | |||
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