Refuse Orders to Mask

Sounds like a dismissal case to me. Insubordination and endangering public health. I'm sure the powerless barista really felt like standing up to the police.

I don't know. If I were on a review board, I might lean toward suspension, except for the ringleader.

Still, this is endemic of the national problem. Police do not believe they are public servants, and do not believe that they are responsible to anyone other than themselves.

That obviously isn't true of all police, but it's true of more than a small minority.

I just watched the video...not only no masks but they shook each other's hands and then sat down at a tightly spaced table..

quote:

Originally posted by QuirtEvans:
I don't know. If I were on a review board, I might lean toward suspension, except for the ringleader.

Still, this is endemic of the national problem. Police do not believe they are public servants, and do not believe that they are responsible to anyone other than themselves.

That obviously isn't true of all police, but it's true of more than a small minority.

Is there a way to measure this notion that police do or do not believe they are public servants? Beyond prevalence of viral videos of individual bad actors, of course.

It doesn’t have to be cancel culture. Here’s what leadership looks like.

E78F8AC6-FA19-4593-802D-21B55A66EB73 by pianomom2001, on Flickr

quote:

Originally posted by Horace:

quote:

Originally posted by QuirtEvans:
I don't know. If I were on a review board, I might lean toward suspension, except for the ringleader.

Still, this is endemic of the national problem. Police do not believe they are public servants, and do not believe that they are responsible to anyone other than themselves.

That obviously isn't true of all police, but it's true of more than a small minority.

Is there a way to measure this notion that police do or do not believe they are public servants? Beyond prevalence of viral videos of individual bad actors, of course.

To quote a movie that you may or may not have watched, why do you ask questions to which you already know the answer?

Well-Deserved Firings in Colorado

Now let me play devil here ...

Unlike in Oregon, no forgiveness talk, no "come to Jesus" moment for these officers with the governor.

I suspect many people who support the gentler "non-divisive" forgiveness of the Oregon police will cheer the immediate and summary dismissal of the Colorado police. That tells me more about their preferences than about justice. Play-acting in a seemingly racist way is unforgivable. Actually violating a direct order of the governor and endangering both public health and the social norm the governor is trying to establish is not nearly as bad.

Back to Oregon. I think many saw the governor's response as a reasonable attempt to turn the actions of those officers toward a greater public good without "canceling" them. Part of me buys that argument.

But the other part of me sees a different story. Was she just trying to politely educate them? How about using her power over them for her own purposes. Those men sitting around the table were in a sense prisoners being paraded by the North Koreans, confessing their sins in a choreographed public performance because the alternatives to confession were pretty awful.

Why were the Colorado officers not similarly re-educated?

Well, I'm on the "dismiss them all" side, actually. I'm not convinced of the efficacy of re-education, and these people have all signaled pretty strongly about their character and values.

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I think many saw the governor's response as a reasonable attempt to turn the actions of those officers toward a greater public good without "canceling" them. Part of me buys that argument.

Me, as well. I believe in second chances (provided the "offense" is not too egregious). More importantly, and especially with regard to masks, I believe in setting examples and making it easy for people to change their minds. If we see a whole bunch of people getting fired for not having a mask, isn't that just going to fuel the "mandatory masks=infringement on freedom" fires? What we want to convey is, it's always a good time to change your mind about masks. Anyone can start wearing masks and be welcomed etc.

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But the other part of me sees a different story. Was she just trying to politely educate them? How about using her power over them for her own purposes. Those men sitting around the table were in a sense prisoners being paraded by the North Koreans, confessing their sins in a choreographed public performance because the alternatives to confession were pretty awful.

I would say your N.Korea comparison is a pretty huge exaggeration and far too much melodrama than we need right now. That interpretation actually goes well with the "mandatory masks=infringement on freedom" view.

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I'm not convinced of the efficacy of re-education, and these people have all signaled pretty strongly about their character and values.

The trouble is, America is full of people like them, and we need to figure out a way to coexist with them and get them to come around, otherwise we'll never get out in front of this virus.

I just read about the officers who were fired in Colorado. Good lord! I am very comfortable viewing them differently from the mask issue.

The idea of using masks is still new in the US, there's a fair amount of competing information and uncertainty, so I think it's reasonable to think we have a learning curve here and we need to make as many teachable moments as we can, rather than bringing the hammer down hard on the first time.

The Colorado cops.... that's a question of basic human decency. We can't have officers who are lacking that, it's a necessary prerequisite.

quote:

Originally posted by QuirtEvans:

quote:

Originally posted by Horace:

quote:

Originally posted by QuirtEvans:
I don't know. If I were on a review board, I might lean toward suspension, except for the ringleader.

Still, this is endemic of the national problem. Police do not believe they are public servants, and do not believe that they are responsible to anyone other than themselves.

That obviously isn't true of all police, but it's true of more than a small minority.

Is there a way to measure this notion that police do or do not believe they are public servants? Beyond prevalence of viral videos of individual bad actors, of course.

To quote a movie that you may or may not have watched, why do you ask questions to which you already know the answer?

No, I don't know how one would go about measuring the degree to which government employees consider themselves to be public servants. I suppose you could just ask them, but I doubt you'd trust the answers.

quote:

Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
Well, I'm on the "dismiss them all" side, actually. I'm not convinced of the efficacy of re-education, and these people have all signaled pretty strongly about their character and values.

"Dismiss them all" is a strong signal of one's character and values as well.

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The trouble is, America is full of people like them, and we need to figure out a way to coexist with them and get them to come around, otherwise we'll never get out in front of this virus.

Then re-educate the Colorado cops as well. America is full of them too.

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Then re-educate them as well.

Yes, that's my point. Not firing the officers is part of that re-education.

We need as many people (from as many different backgrounds, political parties etc.) as possible promoting mask wearing. It needs to be normalized, it needs to be encouraged, and when people come around, we need to commend them. And thank them.

Positive reinforcement, re-education, we need all of it!

Well, I'm on the other side of that argument ...

Assuming that the Colorado police were irredeemably racist while assuming the Oregon police were teachable tells me more about current political pressures and less about "justice," and as a practical matter I would have just used simple dismissals as a signal to others. Norms are slow to develop. We begin with some consistency not ramrodded by contemporary politics.