In case you haven’t seen this at PianoWorld, piano builder Chris Maene has crafted a grand piano with a curved keyboard. It is also flat-strung instead of overstrung.

Website here with pics

Would like to hear that live.
That is a grand design.
It may be better than my skateboard on a wide bench design.

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Originally posted by CHAS:
Would like to hear that live.
That is a grand design.
It may be better than my skateboard on a wide bench design.

There is a short video of someone playing it on the PianoWorld thread. It sounds just like a “normal” piano, and the pianist said it’s easy to get used to.

I'd like to hear it, and try it, myself. I don't understand the acoustics behind straight-stringing, but people say it sounds different.

Jonathan Biss said it was very easy to get used to it, so the question is, what about us mere mortals?

Reminds me a bit of the Malmsjo "banana" piano...though this one looks to have a better hammer line and action design

Ugh. Another futile attempt to reinvent the piano for the wrong reason. How many times has a curved keyboard been debuted already? It seems someone comes out with one every decade. I highly doubt a curved keyboard is going to do anything to prevent injuries. Injury happens by not paying attention, by not being educated properly; by 'bad use' as an Alexander practitioner would put it. Just a cursory overview of the great pianists shows us that there is nothing the matter with the straight keyboard we are familiar with. They don't contort themselves navigating the further reaches of the piano... unless it's for show.

OMG, I remember in the early 80s when ergonomic chairs were all the rage. I had some coworkers who were adamant they couldn't sit in a regular chair without injuring themselves.

Oh well, chaque un a son gout, as another coworker used to say.

IMO, if you want to redesign the piano, do it for tonal reasons.

Bernard, that was,ind of my original reaction, but the I read in a NYT article how this piano came about:

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The Maene-Viñoly piano, as it is known, began with a dinner-party conversation among Viñoly and two old friends, the pianist Martha Argerich and the conductor and pianist Daniel Barenboim. Viñoly had studied the piano in his native Uruguay before becoming an architect. He owned at least eight grand pianos.

“When they were all sort of kvetching about how challenging the piano can be,” his son Roman Viñoly said, “he thought up this idea that it could be ergonomic. And if it was, the far reaches of the keyboard — the high end and the low end — could be brought closer to the pianist and relieve the physical contortions that are required on a regular piano.”

Roman Viñoly said that his father said something like, “What if the keyboard were curved?”

Argerich and Barenboim “looked at each other and smiled and said, ‘That would be great,’” Roman Viñoly said. “Their comment was flippant, but he took it to heart.”

The article also reports that Jonathan Biss is (was?) playing it in a concert at Carnegie Hall and he said he adjusted to it immediately.

That’s not to say I think we all should switched to this kind of piano, but it makes me more interested in it.

Actually, the adaptation that I think has a lot more merit is the alternatively sized keyboard movement (i.e., the slightly smaller keyboards that are meant to make it possible to play more challenging chords, 8+ stretches, without injury or strain). I originally thought this wouldn’t be viable, or that pianists wouldn’t be able to switch back to traditionally sized keyboards, but everything I’ve read makes me think it wouldn’t be a problem.

But unfortunately, these keyboards get less press, and even more pushback…

Anyway, here’s the NYT article about the curved keyboard:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/1...x3_9O&smid=url-share

Hi SK, I can't read the NYTimes article due to paywall.

But from the snippet you posted, "When they were all sort of kvetching about how challenging the piano can be..."

Yeah, it's challenging, but I wonder if they really think redesigning the keyboard will change that. Do they honestly think that Rachmaninoff or Liszt or any other of the great composer's works are going to be easier to learn and play on a curved keyboard? I think they are kidding themselves if they think so.

Case in point is Bach's or Mozart's or Beethoven's music. Because of keyboard limitations of the time, it does not reach the nether regions of our modern keyboards; the notes are all very much within comfortable reach. I don't know anyone who thinks these composers music is easy to play, curved keyboard or not.

The far reaches of the keyboard are not the issue, we are fully capable of reaching the ends of our modern 88 key pianos. All you need to do is straighten your elbow; there you are at the limits of the keyboard. Ah, but yes indeed, it's challenging because one needs to figure out the issue of gravity, center of gravity, leverage, poise, etc., etc. The challenge is bringing awareness to what's going on with and between our muscles and bones (or probably more accurately, what's not going on with them), and subsequently how does one have to change?

With a curved keyboard we will be presented with a whole new set of challenges. Again, the answer to those challenges will be one of "use" (as it's known in Alexander Technique).

Interesting idea, that of alternatively sized keyboards. This is a thing in stringed instruments. There are 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, and full sized violins and cellos (I don't know about basses). Young children start on the 1/4 size and graduate, eventually reaching their best fitting instrument. When I was in adult group cello class, we had at least one (I'm, pretty sure there was more than one) adult who used a 3/4 sized cello. I think French cellos, also, are a bit smaller.

Speaking of challenges: Stringed instruments. For starters, the piano's notes are the responsibility of the tuner; as we know, stringed instruments rely on their players for note accuracy. Bowing is extremely difficult. I know it looks, "la dee dah, la dee dah, bowing, bowing happily along...", professionals make it look so easy. It is hard. You have to get weight on the string at the tip of the bow while your hand is at the other end... more than a few feet out from your side. Not easy. It almost makes reaching for the 88th piano key a picnic.

I read an analogy which put it this way (paraphrased): The learning curve on piano is gradual, you can sound good right away because the notes are in tune (assuming you have a good tuner), but mastering the piano can take time. The learning curve on cello (or other stringed instruments, I imagine) is steep (imo, it's like hitting a brick wall and the only option is scaling it vertically). In the end, I don't think there is as much to master on a stringed instrument because it's mostly often monophony (double stops (chords), though, are quite the challenge... but like all things, doable). But in no way do I mean to imply that stringed instruments are easier to learn. They're not.

To wrap up this rambling, I guess what I'm attempting to say is that making music is a challenge no matter what instrument you are playing and I don't think piano is the hardest--they all have their challenges. But all our instruments are willing and capable of doing their job exquisitely and they don't have to change. We can change and we're fully capable of it. It's a very exciting process.

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making music is a challenge no matter what instrument you are playing and I don't think piano is the hardest--they all have their challenges.

I definitely agree with this! I've never played violin or cello, but I played classical guitar for some years, and for a while I played mandolin as well... Also the shakuhachi (Japanese bamboo flute). It's fascinating to compare these instruments, and the piano, and how what's easy or difficult about each is radically different.

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But all our instruments are willing and capable of doing their job exquisitely and they don't have to change.

This, I think, is open to debate. Years ago I wouldn't have thought so, but reading people's ideas (primarily but not only on PW) has made me want to be more open to innovation and new ideas. Particularly the point that one of the core components of resistance to new ideas like the curved keyboard is really just tradition. Piano in general, and classical music in particular, is very, very traditional, and this makes people resistant to innovations to the instrument.

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We can change and we're fully capable of it. It's a very exciting process.

I want to agree with this, but there's at least one very significant caveat -- hand size. My hand size is not going to change at this point.

Certainly there are things I can do to improve my technique, but my hands are not going to be any other size than they are right now.

Also, I am a hobby pianist with a fulltime (often more than fulltime!) job. There's a limit to the time I can spend at the piano, so I have to make choices about what to play/work on. I have given up on pieces because my hands aren't big enough, and I have given up on pieces for which my hands are just barely big enough, but playing the piece felt like it's going to cause me to injure myself. I suspect that a slightly smaller keyboard would make many/most of these pieces I gave up on accessible to me. So that makes me feel kind of sad.

I know now I'm not talking about the curved keyboard, but I think there's a parallel with the smaller keyboard to a lot of the reaction to the curved keyboard.

I don't think tradition is the reason I view curved keyboards as futile. It's because they're promoted as being more ergonomic and I don't think they are. And I don't think -- apart from physical body limitations -- there is any great need for an "ergonomic" piano.

I think the hurdles that need to be overcome to play a curved keyboard will be no different than what they are for a straight keyboard. It does not appear to me that the curvature is going to change in any significant way, what one needs to develop in one's body structure to play virtuoso music. And if one developed the ability to play virtuosic on a curved keyboard, it would be easy to transfer that to a straight keyboard. I'm not seeing or imagining much--if any--advantage to curving the keyboard horizontally at the ends.

But I have entertained the idea of curving the keyboard vertically (up at the ends), wondering if making the keyboard slightly bowl shaped would help. Alas, I keep coming to the same conclusion. I'm just not seeing it as being very helpful in developing what is needed to play "difficult" music, which is something that happens in the body.

Re: Hand size. That's why I don't play much Rachmaninoff or Liszt. The expense institutions would incur having to buy several sizes of pianos would be prohibitive. Sadly, it's not like smaller instruments that students can carry to class or a concert. I think piano immobility prevents alternate sizing from becoming a reality. A famous small-handed pianist who made a career of playing Mozart is Alicia de Larrocha.

The economics of acoustic pianos certainly does get in the way! If it weren’t so expensive, we could just try it out!

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Originally posted by ShiroKuro:
The economics of acoustic pianos certainly does get in the way! If it weren’t so expensive, we could just try it out!

I would think with today's technology, it would be possible to create an adjustable keyboard. Heck... maybe even with 19th century technology! One where the keys could get wider or narrower at the turn of a dial or touch screen gesture.

... I can't find the edit button, still hidden on my screen...

Anyway, basically we would need the action to remain as it is but we want an adjustable keyboard (I can envision one) so it's a simple matter of creating an interface between an adjustable keyboard and the existing action. Sounds doable to me.