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czarina
Minor Deity
Picture of piqué
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Would be a huge boone to the arts. To me it would be like a grant that gives more freedom to create. I think it's time society recognizes that not everyone can manage in a capitalist system that primarily rewards very aggressive people. And everyone deserves to have thrir basics covered. I lived on less than that in NYC. Be frugal and resourceful and a minimalist and you can actually survive on that kind of money.


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fear is the thief of dreams

 
Posts: 19653 | Registered: 18 May 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Unrepentant Dork
Gadfly
Picture of dolmansaxlil
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They ran a pilot here in several towns. It made a huge difference for children living in poverty. New businesses opened. People went back to school. Charities thrived. It saved money at the government level because they didn’t have to track welfare recipients. Previous welfare recipients could get jobs without fear of services being removed.

The conservative government cancelled it immediately upon election.


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"Your first 10,000 photographs are your worst." ~ Henri Cartier-Bresson

 
Posts: 3433 | Location: Ontario, Canada | Registered: 29 June 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Republican Party identification has begun requiring intellectual vacuity.

-- Jennifer Rubin (she's a conservative for those who don't read much)
Beatification Candidate
Picture of Piano*Dad
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by dolmansaxlil:
Previous welfare recipients could get jobs without fear of services being removed.

The conservative government cancelled it immediately upon election.


Those two sentences go together nicely. People often focus on the moral (in their view) aspect of this and miss or misconstrue the incentive effects.

As in, "if people get 12K per year they'll just sit on their duffs and loll," though there isn't any evidence that that is what they'll do.

By contrast, our current system is full of perverse incentives. Earn a couple dollars more per hour and see your medicaid taken away. Often poor people face enormous tax rates on extra income. THAT is a disincentive to work. GBI eliminates that nasty "effective tax rate" disincentive.
 
Posts: 8904 | Location: Williamsburg, VA | Registered: 19 July 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Has Achieved Nirvana
Picture of Steve Miller
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I think we are going to have more discussions on this as more and more people are displaced by technology.


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Life is short. Play with your dog.

 
Posts: 28792 | Location: Yorba Linda, CA | Registered: 23 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Minor Deity
Picture of Axtremus
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Miller:
I think we are going to have more discussions on this as more and more people are displaced by technology.
Indeed, Andrew Young is just ahead of most all other candidates on this topic. For that reason, I want Andrew Yang to go far, at least far enough to make this a serious topic of public policy discussion at the national level.


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www.PianoRecital.org -- my piano recordings

 
Posts: 11326 | Registered: 01 December 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Minor Deity
Picture of Axtremus
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Just got around to watch these, how Andrew Young explains his Universal Basic Income plan to TV audience:
With Trevor Noah:
https://youtu.be/LAZEcd6wdWs

With Bill Maher:
https://youtu.be/_9say1jGFFQ


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www.PianoRecital.org -- my piano recordings

 
Posts: 11326 | Registered: 01 December 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Has Achieved Nirvana
Picture of CHAS
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quote:
Originally posted by Axtremus:
Just got around to watch these, how Andrew Young explains his Universal Basic Income plan to TV audience:
With Trevor Noah:
https://youtu.be/LAZEcd6wdWs

With Bill Maher:
https://youtu.be/_9say1jGFFQ


Worth repeating


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“If you think you are enlightened, spend a week with your family. - Ram Dass



 
Posts: 21720 | Location: Still living at 9000 feet in the High Rockies of Colorado | Registered: 20 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Does This Avatar Make My Butt Look Big?

Minor Deity
Picture of Cindysphinx
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quote:
Originally posted by Axtremus:
quote:
Originally posted by Cindysphinx:

If you give everyone $12k a year, how is that helping anyone survive? Wouldn’t housing costs rise by, oh, I don’t know, $12k?
No.

Different people need/want different things. An additional $1k for a millionaire goes into an investment account, a charity, or a piece of luxury good. An additional $1k for a low net worth, low income person goes into food, clothing, shelter, transportation, healthcare, education. Different poor people have different needs and different priorities, so will direct that additional $1k towards different things. The funding for the $1k/head still has to come from taxes. So it will come from somewhere in the economy. Redistributing $1k to every head reduces income inequality and give those in the low income strata a better chance at affording basic necessities. Some in the middle class may even use the $1k to reduce the hours they work (e.g., to have more time to take care of children or old people in the family, or even just to play piano or tennis; that’s $1k translated into time rather than rent or goods).

Think one billionaire with 999 homeless hobos. Redistribute $1k per head to everyone, and the hobos can potentially go from homeless to having a room. The billionaire may be the landlord who set rents such that housing for the hobos amount to all the $1k per head they all get, and some middle class renters will have to pay higher rent following the new rate set by the billionaire landlord, but the hobos still go from homeless to having a room.


Nope, I'm still not seeing it.

Several of you have explained that if you give poor people money, most of them use it wisely. Yup, I get it. No argument there.

What I cannot understand is this:

Say UBI goes into effect at $1000/person per month, regardless of need. Just hold out your hand and the government gives you $1000.

Let's take Helen Homeless. Armed with her $1000 and desperately hoping to get off the street, she comes to the apartment complex owned by Thomas Tightfist. There is a sign right out front saying rent for a studio is $1000/month.

Thomas (who also gets $1000/month and is planning a luxury African Safari with the windfall) has 50 tenants in a 50-unit building, all paying $1000/month -- full occupancy. There is, after all, a shortage of affordable housing, which is why Helen is homeless. Thomas immediately raises the rent on each unit to $2000/month. All of the current tenants stay put and, despite their $1000/month government check, are no better off. Meanwhile, there is still no room at the inn for Helen, who goes back to her homeless encampment.

Show me how I'm wrong.
 
Posts: 18666 | Location: A cluttered house in Metro D.C. | Registered: 20 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Beatification Candidate
Picture of rontuner
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that's only true if Thomas owns the only rentable space in town. And even if the housing issue turns out as you guess, are you saying Helen wouldn't be any better off getting $1000 a month than before in terms of quality of life??

Hmmm...


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Posts: 6360 | Location: chicagoland | Registered: 21 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Has Achieved Nirvana
Picture of Steve Miller
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Life is short. Play with your dog.

 
Posts: 28792 | Location: Yorba Linda, CA | Registered: 23 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Minor Deity
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I suspect that mass layoffs of truck drivers is quite a ways off. I can see the autopilots being able to navigate mostly rural freeways. But figuring out how to get into difficult loading docks, handle complex traffic situations - I think a lot of that will still have to be done by humans. And there will be a LOT of support jobs that go along with these new behemoths.


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“Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut, that held its ground.” - David Icke

 
Posts: 11737 | Registered: 20 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Republican Party identification has begun requiring intellectual vacuity.

-- Jennifer Rubin (she's a conservative for those who don't read much)
Beatification Candidate
Picture of Piano*Dad
posted Hide Post
quote:
Show me how I'm wrong.


Cindy, I'm just curious. Have you ever taken Econ 101?

A 10% increase in demand for a product does not lead to a 10% increase in price unless the supply of the thing in question is perfectly inelastic (absolutely fixed). And UBI wouldn't lead everyone to go out and want more housing. It would lead only some people to start to demand housing, or to demand somewhat better housing. As an empirical matter, handing everyone $1,000 per month "for nothing" would have very limited effect on housing prices. Perhaps greater in some narrow areas, and lesser in others. But there is virtually no situation I can imagine where a person who gets $1,000 per month manna from heaven would face $1,000 more per month in housing charges.
 
Posts: 8904 | Location: Williamsburg, VA | Registered: 19 July 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Does This Avatar Make My Butt Look Big?

Minor Deity
Picture of Cindysphinx
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
quote:
Show me how I'm wrong.


Cindy, I'm just curious. Have you ever taken Econ 101?

Oooh, so snarky.

Well, if the response to people who are skeptical about this idea is to belittle them, I don't think it is going anywhere.
 
Posts: 18666 | Location: A cluttered house in Metro D.C. | Registered: 20 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Republican Party identification has begun requiring intellectual vacuity.

-- Jennifer Rubin (she's a conservative for those who don't read much)
Beatification Candidate
Picture of Piano*Dad
posted Hide Post
Actually, I wasn't trying to be snarky. I was trying to gauge level of knowledge. And then I tried to explain why handing someone $1,000 would not "cause" their rent to go up by $1,000.
 
Posts: 8904 | Location: Williamsburg, VA | Registered: 19 July 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Does This Avatar Make My Butt Look Big?

Minor Deity
Picture of Cindysphinx
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Well, OK. But if someone asked me a dead obvious question about my field, I wouldn't begin my answer with, "I'm just curious, have you ever taken Civics 101?"
 
Posts: 18666 | Location: A cluttered house in Metro D.C. | Registered: 20 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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