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Has Achieved Nirvana
Picture of QuirtEvans
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quote:
Originally posted by jon-nyc:
There's an interesting analogy I thought of.

I behave this way, to an extent anyway, with kids.

I studiously avoid being alone with any of my kids friends, solely to minimize the already tiny possibility of some false accusation. There aren't that many instances in which it changes my behavior, but there have been some, especially as a stay-at-home dad.


It is an interesting analogy because (1) like #metoo, false accusations are presumably quite rare but (2) since the accusation itself is (socially) fatal it makes sense to do what you can to minimize it. And (3) to say "just try not to be an asshole" misses the point.


Yeah, as another solo father, that was exactly the analogy.

I didn't let it change my behavior ... there were times when I drove one of the Quirt v2.0's friends home, even when they were teenage girls, because I just don't worry about that sort of thing. And because I knew all the parents, and they knew me. But it was a risk, and I certainly can understand why someone might want to be extra careful about such things.
 
Posts: 41799 | Registered: 20 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Minor Deity
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Yes, this fellow I’m talking about should be terrified . . . If he lacks common sense.

Me, I’m Not terrified because I have common sense. I will behave like a professional around him, so I have nothing to worry about.

I am also not terrified of being convicted a bank robbery because I have the common sense not to rob a bank.
 
Posts: 18168 | Location: A cluttered house in Metro D.C. | Registered: 20 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by QuirtEvans:
quote:
Originally posted by jon-nyc:
There's an interesting analogy I thought of.

I behave this way, to an extent anyway, with kids.

I studiously avoid being alone with any of my kids friends, solely to minimize the already tiny possibility of some false accusation. There aren't that many instances in which it changes my behavior, but there have been some, especially as a stay-at-home dad.


It is an interesting analogy because (1) like #metoo, false accusations are presumably quite rare but (2) since the accusation itself is (socially) fatal it makes sense to do what you can to minimize it. And (3) to say "just try not to be an asshole" misses the point.


Yeah, as another solo father, that was exactly the analogy.

I didn't let it change my behavior ... there were times when I drove one of the Quirt v2.0's friends home, even when they were teenage girls, because I just don't worry about that sort of thing. And because I knew all the parents, and they knew me. But it was a risk, and I certainly can understand why someone might want to be extra careful about such things.



I’ve driven one friend home, I know him and his parents well.

One time a kid was coming over for an after school play date and got here before the bus dropped off the boy (this kid rides a different bus). So it was going to be just me and him. I waited with him outside on the front step until my son came back, then we all went inside.
 
Posts: 30209 | Location: On the Hudson | Registered: 20 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
Yes, this fellow I’m talking about should be terrified . . . If he lacks common sense.

Me, I’m Not terrified because I have common sense. I will behave like a professional around him, so I have nothing to worry about.

I am also not terrified of being convicted a bank robbery because I have the common sense not to rob a bank.


That, of course, is not what you said.

What you said was this:

quote:
He is probably terrified about crossing a line.

Good.


That says two things: that he's probably terrified, and that you are glad that he's probably terrified.

I can certainly understand why you'd want to backpedal furiously away from that.
 
Posts: 41799 | Registered: 20 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Women complain that they are not being taken seriously in the workplace. That they don’t get promotions. That no one will talk to them. That they can’t get ahead. That men won’t work with them, won’t mentor them.

Read this thread. Twice.


--------------------------------
Life is short. Play with your dog.

 
Posts: 26510 | Location: Yorba Linda, CA | Registered: 23 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yes, I am comfortable with male coworkers being worried and concerned about how their behavior will be perceived. Its less of a burden than worrying about being patted, groped, assaulted. After a while, appropriate behavior becomes habit and the worries fade. In the meantime, the burden is shared rather than on women alone and I am ok with that.


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Posts: 2580 | Registered: 07 April 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by piqaboo:
Yes, I am comfortable with male coworkers being worried and concerned about how their behavior will be perceived. Its less of a burden than worrying about being patted, groped, assaulted. After a while, appropriate behavior becomes habit and the worries fade. In the meantime, the burden is shared rather than on women alone and I am ok with that.


Exactly.

I mean, really. Those of us who have been in the workplace remember the Bad Old Days. You had to constantly be on your guard, careful not to wear the wrong thing, careful not to say the wrong thing, aware that if things went badly you would never be believed, that it could cost you your career.

Welcome to our world, boys.
 
Posts: 18168 | Location: A cluttered house in Metro D.C. | Registered: 20 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Minor Deity
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Miller:
Women complain that they are not being taken seriously in the workplace. That they don’t get promotions. That no one will talk to them. That they can’t get ahead. That men won’t work with them, won’t mentor them.

Read this thread. Twice.


Ya gotta be careful with that, though.

Yes, women complain of discrimination in the workplace.

So the answer is to keep your mouth shut and endure discriminatory treatment?

The problem is not with the women who complain about discrimination. The problem is with the people doing the discriminating.

Cindy -- who recalls these same arguments when black people started appearing in the professional workplace, because people predicted whites would not mentor them, promote them, hire them, work with them out of fear of race discrimination suits
 
Posts: 18168 | Location: A cluttered house in Metro D.C. | Registered: 20 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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And another thing.

I don't think that the men here at WTF or men generally actually live in terror or even feel that the #metoo movement has been wrong or unfair. Surely men don't feel that the Cosbys/Weinsteins/Moonves/Lauers/C.Ks of the world were treated unfairly.

No, what feels unfair to some men is that it feels like the rules got changed. I mean, when these guys did those things, they did not in a million years think anything bad would happen to them. Sure, it was wrong, but through a combination of denial, threats, cover-ups, NDAs, and protection from their bosses they felt safe. Now all of a sudden the whole world is treating what they thought was a misdemeanor like a capital crime.

You know what it reminds me of? Child molestation in the Catholic Church. When those priests did those things, they knew it was wrong but figured they wouldn't be caught through a combination of denial, threats, cover-ups, NDAs, and protection from their bosses.

Maybe some priests are now terrified that they will be accused of molestation.

To that I say:

Good.
 
Posts: 18168 | Location: A cluttered house in Metro D.C. | Registered: 20 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
czarina
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I think with children it is a little different. Children lack the maturity and experience to accurately judge a situation. There is also the involvement of their parents, who could be overprotective.

As someone who has worked one on one with children a lot, my experience is that organizations don't let you do that until you have been very thoroughly vetted--personality tests, background checks, psych evaluations, the works.

Two adults don't require all that to interact. Adults can judge situations and speak for themselves, and be responsible for themselves.

Jon I think you are wise to be self protective in such situations with kids.


--------------------------------
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Posts: 19098 | Registered: 18 May 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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OK, one more quick thing.

Jon and Quirt are talking about how they have to modify their behavior to avoid false allegations of improper behavior with minors.

I understand that, of course.

But it is interesting on one level because their discussion reflects some serious White Male Privilege.

Consider this. Black people -- especially black men -- have to moderate their behavior all the time to avoid false allegations. The default assumption is that black men are criminals or dangerous, so black men have to do all kinds of things white men don't have to worry about to avoid getting (among other things shot by the police).

So now white men have something similar -- they have to alter their behavior (while around minor children, anyway) to avoid a false allegation.

Don't take this the wrong way or anything, but you do realize that other racial groups have had to take these sorts of precautions for generations? Do you understand why the well of sympathy might have run dry for your plight?

Something to consider . . . .
 
Posts: 18168 | Location: A cluttered house in Metro D.C. | Registered: 20 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I take precautions. In fact I stop talking.

Who wins?


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Life is short. Play with your dog.

 
Posts: 26510 | Location: Yorba Linda, CA | Registered: 23 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
czarina
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I totally get that, Cindy. If a raised awareness makes some men uncomfortable so that now women can be more comfortable, I think that's just absolutely fine. They'll get used to the new normal.

It just means they didn't realize before how totally ****** past generally accepted behavior was. If they had realized it before, it wouldn't be such a surprise now.


--------------------------------
fear is the thief of dreams

 
Posts: 19098 | Registered: 18 May 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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As you wish.


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Posts: 26510 | Location: Yorba Linda, CA | Registered: 23 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Of course, Cindy didn’t say that it was ok that a co-worker felt the need to be careful, or that he was uncomfortable, or even scared. She said that he was probably terrified, and that that was good. And, when called on it, she hasn’t backed away from her statement at all. She hasn’t said she misspoke, or that she didn’t really mean that. In fact, she defends the fact that she’s glad he’s terrified.

People can dance around that as much as they like, and can try to re-frame the issue in terms of discomfort, but that’s not what Cindy said. Cindy said that she’s happy that a co-worker is probably terrified.

Let that sink in.

Is it admirable that someone is happy that another human being ... one who, as far as we know, has done nothing wrong ... is terrified?

Terror is a pretty strong word. Deliberately inflicting terror is probably a form of torture. But Cindy’s ok that a co-worker is terrified, in fact she’s glad, because the shoe is on the other foot.

Let that sink in.

Now, I am sure that Cindy will (or would) say that she’s not responsible for his terror. And she’s not. She hasn’t inflicted the terror. She’s not responsible for how he feels. But she’s happy about it. Kind of like the people at Trump rallies who don’t actually harm protestors themselves, but are happy to watch those protestors get stomped, because they think the protestors had it coming to them.

So yeah, I get that it’s ok that everyone feels the need to be careful, and that there are minefields for both men and women in the office. I get that, historically, men could take advantage of women in ways that were obviously inappropriate, or just make women uncomfortable, and now they can’t, so they need to adjust their behavior. And the very notion of adjustment can be uncomfortable. Nothing wrong with that. It’s a new world, get used to it. Actually, they should have been behaving properly all along, and it shouldn’t have taken the threat of liability or loss of job or social shaming to get them to behave decently.

I’m glad that men are moderating their behavior in appropriate ways. But I’m regretful that it may have taken a feeling of terror for some to do that. Sorrowful, even.

And I’m definitely not ok with someone being glad that someone else is terrified. That violates my moral compass. I would have thought it would violate everyone’s moral compass, but maybe tribalism and a desire for payback is stronger than morality.

But, coming back to the topic of the thread, people who are terrified aren’t going to behave rationally. They are going to take extreme steps, maybe even unwarranted or inadvisable steps, to protect themselves from whatever it is that terrifies them. So perhaps a feeling of terror is not something to be happy about, because it will lead to counterproductive behavior.
 
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