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Republican Party identification has begun requiring intellectual vacuity.

-- Jennifer Rubin (she's a conservative for those who don't read much)
Beatification Candidate
Picture of Piano*Dad
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quote:
#metoo Me too. Check your pm.


... and responded.
 
Posts: 7678 | Location: Williamsburg, VA | Registered: 19 July 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Has Achieved Nirvana
Picture of QuirtEvans
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quote:
Originally posted by piqué:
Is #metoo about false accusations?

I didn't think so.

So the solution is pretty simple: behave like a gentleman.


The reality is simple.

1. There are false accusations. They may be a small percentage, but the percentage is greater than zero.

2. People are subject to irrational fears. Men on Wall Street, too.

What would you tell someone who is afraid of a false accusation? That they’re being irrational? Telling someone to ignore their fears because those fears are irrational has always worked so well.
 
Posts: 41799 | Registered: 20 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Has Achieved Nirvana
Picture of QuirtEvans
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quote:
Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
How many people have worked with someone who was actually drummed out of their business by a false accusation? A legitimate one?

I mean really worked with that person rather than being two or three degrees separated? Being a low-level flunky in CBS doesn't mean you "worked with Les Moonves." [I know someone who was his proverbial right hand, but that doesn't mean I worked with him]

I'm guessing the number is quite small. The exaggerated risk avoidance behaviors being bruited about really sound like extremist talking points.

Not being an asshole really will go a long way.


Again, the fear may be irrational, but that doesn't make the fear less real.

Having been the person responsible for conducting investigations and evaluating claims of sexual harassment, I can tell you that, most of the time, you don't know for sure. When someone accuses someone else, and the accused denies it, and there were no witnesses and there's no definitive outside evidence, you are left with judgments about credibility. And the burden of proof in these cases is not beyond a reasonable doubt, or even clear and convincing evidence. So, honestly, very few people can know for sure whether they've worked with someone who lost their job as the result of a false accusation.

The best thing that's happened in the #metoo movement is that there have been, in the most prominent public cases, multiple accusers telling similar stories about consistent behavior. The judgments in those circumstances are a LOT easier.
 
Posts: 41799 | Registered: 20 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
czarina
Minor Deity
Picture of piqué
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I already said what I would tell them: just behave like a gentleman. The odds of a false accusation are remote. Not impossible, but rare enough that you don't need to twist yourself into a pretzel to avoid it.

Btw, update on me being falsely accused of being violent towards a dental technician. The dentist heard me out, then welcomed me back into her practice. All went well. She judged for herself that her employee must have had a perception problem. I was there for three hours having a crown done and nobody got a black eye.


--------------------------------
fear is the thief of dreams

 
Posts: 19099 | Registered: 18 May 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of QuirtEvans
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quote:
Originally posted by piqué:
I already said what I would tell them: just behave like a gentleman. The odds of a false accusation are remote. Not impossible, but rare enough that you don't need to twist yourself into a pretzel to avoid it.


You ignored my point about irrational fears. There are people who are irrationally afraid of sharks (one of my daughters), of tunnels (one of my ex-girlfriends), of vaccines (fill in your own example). There are people who are irrationally afraid of being attacked in their own home, and thus have multiple guns at their disposal.

So, your response to someone who has an irrational fear of being falsely accused would be to tell them to buck up? That'd be effective and persuasive, I'm sure.
 
Posts: 41799 | Registered: 20 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Republican Party identification has begun requiring intellectual vacuity.

-- Jennifer Rubin (she's a conservative for those who don't read much)
Beatification Candidate
Picture of Piano*Dad
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Quirt, In normal daily behavior I wouldn't presume to tell a person with "irrational" fears how to behave. You are quite right that finger wagging and moralizing rarely works. I MIGHT presume to advise people on likelihoods and probabilities, and make suggestions on how to minimize them. But ultimately, it's their choice how to behave. I'm sure we all know people who will never fly, or never go into a cave, or ....

On the other hand, if a male supervisor who works for me chooses to insulate themselves from all risk of false charges, and that results in clear discrimination against female employees, I would feel well within my rights to fire that supervisor. Their fear of false accusation would not prevent me from doing so. Darwin's law of employees. They should find another line of work since I could easily find someone with fewer irrational hangups who would increase the value of my firm.
 
Posts: 7678 | Location: Williamsburg, VA | Registered: 19 July 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Piano*Dad:

If a male supervisor who works for me chooses to insulate themselves from all risk of false charges, and that results in clear discrimination against female employees, I would feel well within my rights to fire that supervisor. Their fear of false accusation would not prevent me from doing so. Darwin's law of employees. They should find another line of work since I could easily find someone with fewer irrational hangups who would increase the value of my firm.


Absolutely. Discrimination is wrong, too.

But it isn't discrimination to refuse one-on-one situations with EVERYONE. To refuse to close a door whenever there's just one person in the room with you. To refuse to go out to dinner with anyone. To insist on sitting separately on airplanes, to insist on different hotels, when traveling. To refuse to mentor anyone.

If you refuse to do any of that with anyone, male or female, young or old, regardless of skin color or sexual orientation or religious denomination, then there's no discrimination at all.
 
Posts: 41799 | Registered: 20 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Republican Party identification has begun requiring intellectual vacuity.

-- Jennifer Rubin (she's a conservative for those who don't read much)
Beatification Candidate
Picture of Piano*Dad
posted Hide Post
quote:
If you refuse to do any of that with anyone, male or female, young or old, regardless of skin color or sexual orientation or religious denomination, then there's no discrimination at all.


And if I'm your boss, I fire you because you're a piss poor employee and not a team player. Big Grin
 
Posts: 7678 | Location: Williamsburg, VA | Registered: 19 July 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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One further thought. Irrational fears can interfere with job functions, but then it depends on how good you are at your job.

You mentioned fear of flying. The old Oakland Raiders football coach, John Madden, was famously afraid of flying. He must have flown when he was a coach, but, when he left coaching, he became a television football game analyst for CBS. He was probably the best one in the business, for many years.

One of his conditions of employment was that he was never required to fly. He'd take cross-country trips on a big customized tour bus. CBS had a driver (or maybe two) for him, if I recall.

If you're good enough, and if the cost of catering to you is small enough, people will tolerate those sorts of eccentricities.
 
Posts: 41799 | Registered: 20 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Has Achieved Nirvana
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quote:
Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
quote:
If you refuse to do any of that with anyone, male or female, young or old, regardless of skin color or sexual orientation or religious denomination, then there's no discrimination at all.


And if I'm your boss, I fire you because you're a piss poor employee and not a team player. Big Grin


I anticipated that thought, and I just responded to it while you were posting. Big Grin
 
Posts: 41799 | Registered: 20 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
czarina
Minor Deity
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Their irrational fears are not my responsibility.


--------------------------------
fear is the thief of dreams

 
Posts: 19099 | Registered: 18 May 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by piqué:
Their irrational fears are not my responsibility.


Of course they aren't. But your disdain for their irrational fears isn't their problem either.
 
Posts: 41799 | Registered: 20 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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How irrational are they, exactly?


--------------------------------
Life is short. Play with your dog.

 
Posts: 26510 | Location: Yorba Linda, CA | Registered: 23 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
czarina
Minor Deity
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Miller:
How irrational are they, exactly?


Steve, I think any of us are always at risk that someone with an axe to grind will make up a story to try to take you down. Backstabbers are everywhere and it doesn't have to be an accusation of sexual harassment. It could be theft, or lying, or assault of another kind.

I think the odds of being falsely accused of sexual harassment are about the same as being falsely accused of just about anything else. I think false accusations are mostly malicious, or done for other ulterior motives. It has to be incredibly rare that a false accusation is a result of misinterpreted behavior.

Because it just isn't that hard to keep your hands to yourself and to not make suggestive or inappropriate remarks.


--------------------------------
fear is the thief of dreams

 
Posts: 19099 | Registered: 18 May 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Define “inappropriate.”

I’m in a group where I am a mentor to various younger folks on business matters. One of the things we are supposed to discuss is “dress for success.”

There is no way to have that conversation without going off in to the weeds. I’m not doing it.


--------------------------------
Life is short. Play with your dog.

 
Posts: 26510 | Location: Yorba Linda, CA | Registered: 23 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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