The control part comes from the history of men owning women, pretty much.

Kind of how there’s nothing inherently wrong with referring to a black man as boy, until you know the history.

It does make for one weird conversation, though.

“Oh, wow, you cut your hair. It looks nice. What does your husband think?”

Does that sound normal to anyone?

quote:

Originally posted by Cindysphinx:

Part of the issue is that many men see a women's hair as part of her sex appeal. So asking that question has a whiff of, "Does your husband still think you're hot, 'cause I can see how he wouldn't. "

This happens to every woman who cuts her hair short, I think.

Tangent: the very fist time I cut my hair short it was because the boy I was dating said (in response to another girl in the school getting a pixie cut) that he would break up with me if I did that. I chopped all my hair off 24 hours later and he dumped me 12 hours after that. Good riddance.

quote:

Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
The control part comes from the history of men owning women, pretty much.

Kind of how there’s nothing inherently wrong with referring to a black man as boy, until you know the history.

It does make for one weird conversation, though.

“Oh, wow, you cut your hair. It looks nice. What does your husband think?”

Does that sound normal to anyone?

I thought I’d said quite clearly that the question from a third party was inappropriate. Are you making it a straw man?

I’d moved on to discussing whether taking your spouse’s views into consideration was an indication of spousal “control”.

I find it unlikely that most women wouldn’t have an opinion that they voiced about whether their husband should grow a beard or shave his head. Or what he should or should not wear to a particular event. Or about whether a particular tie goes with a particular suit and shirt. Etc.

I don’t mind when Mary Anna has an opinion about such things. Unless I feel really strongly, I doubt I’d do any of those things over her reservations.

But perhaps that’s just me, and most men would reflexively react as if someone was challenging their autonomy.

You think?

quote:

I’d moved on to discussing whether taking your spouse’s views into consideration was an indication of spousal “control”.

Yes, it carries a tinge of that, based on history. The fact that you wouldn't expect to tell your partner how they could wear their hair is irrelevant.

You keep wanting to describe this is a matter of voicing your opinion. I totally believe that is how you view a potential discussion about hairstyles. But Dol's example above indicates that for some people it goes well beyond expressing an opinion, and strongly into issues of control, respect (earned or not), etc.

Here's a short list of things that men I've dated feel they can tell me what to do about--not "express an opinion," not "agree to disagree"--I'm talking about flat out telling me what to do or else they would (insert ultimatum here):

1. Hairstyle
2. Clothing
3. What drink I order at a bar
4. What food I order at a restaurant
5. What neighborhood I should live in
6. What friends I should have
7. What major and GPA I should have
8. How much I should weigh

There is a reason I ended relationships with each one of these guys. But quite literally, each one felt he had a right to tell me what I should do regarding these topics--and this is just a quick list of the things that I can still remember, and that still make me angry. The ultimatums ranged from "I'll just leave you here alone in the bar," to "I'll break up with you."

I don't think I'm in the minority here, though I hope there's some sort of age component as well.

quote:

I don't think I'm in the minority here.

Nope, you're not.

quote:

Originally posted by Nina:

quote:

I’d moved on to discussing whether taking your spouse’s views into consideration was an indication of spousal “control”.

Here's a short list of things that men I've dated feel they can tell me what to do about--not "express an opinion," not "agree to disagree"--I'm talking about flat out telling me what to do or else they would (insert ultimatum here):

1. Hairstyle
2. Clothing
3. What drink I order at a bar
4. What food I order at a restaurant
5. What neighborhood I should live in
6. What friends I should have
7. What major and GPA I should have
8. How much I should weigh

I cannot tell you how many women have told me what I could or could not wear to a particular event, or what shoes I was required to wear. Or that I needed to get a haircut. I've had women, without even asking, reach over to button or unbutton a button on my shirt that they felt ought to be other than it was (and no, I'm not talking about a button inadvertently unbuttoned). You mention food? Various women have told me not to order chili cheese fries because they're bad for me.

You've never seen a woman smack a man's hand when he reached to take something that she did not want him to take, for example at a party? Or tell him that he's had enough to drink?

The fact that you might not do that does not mean that many, many other women wouldn't, without the slightest tinge of irony.

I suppose the difference in my reaction is that, when a woman didn't like what I was wearing and walked into my closet and pulled out a different shirt and pants and said, "Here, wear this," without asking permission, I didn't get angry. From my point of view, it was just a question of whether it was worth getting into a fight about it or not. Generally, not.

But did she issue you a legitimate ultimatum? Get mad because you weren't showing her enough respect? Threaten legitimate violence (not just smacking someone's hand)? Make you feel afraid for going against her wishes? Bully you any time you went against her wishes? Told you that your job was to do her bidding?

Shoot, people disagree all the time about all sorts of things, important and stupid. I'm not talking about a disagreement.

quote:

Originally posted by Nina:
But did she issue you a legitimate ultimatum?

I suppose that depends on the sort of ultimatum you mean. "I'm not going with you if you're wearing that" is about as bad as that ever got.

quote:

Get mad because you weren't showing her enough respect?

I don't know if I'd characterize it as respect. Get mad because I disagreed with her decision about what I should wear? Yes.

quote:

Threaten legitimate violence (not just smacking someone's hand)?

No. However, let me remind you that smacking someone's hand is assault.

quote:

Make you feel afraid for going against her wishes?

No.

quote:

Bully you any time you went against her wishes?

Yes.

quote:

Told you that your job was to do her bidding?

In those words? No. But was there a definite assumption that I was supposed to wear what she told me to wear? Or do what she told me to do? Yes.

quote:

Shoot, people disagree all the time about all sorts of things, important and stupid. I'm not talking about a disagreement.

Neither am I.

If a man told a woman that what she was wearing was inappropriate, you would not characterize that as a disagreement. That would be one of those things that demonstrate's insufficient respect for her autonomy.

And yet, more than one woman has said that to me, in complete seriousness and with a 100% expectation that I would change my clothes. They wouldn't have described it as an autonomy issue, of course. They would simply have said that they were right and I was wrong, and therefore that I should do what they told me to do. And, if I disagreed, that would precipitate a fight.

I'm sure you know women who treat their husbands or boyfriends that way. It's inconceivable that you don't.

Quirt, I’m not making a straw man argument because I’m not making an argument.

I’m telling you how some women feel about these issues. Read and participate if you’d like.

Once had an impulse to say something to my partner, Steve, the doctor from Utah.
We were going to the Met to see Peter Grimes. He was wearing his clodhopper brogans.
The next thing I did was laugh.

quote:

Originally posted by QuirtEvans:
I suppose the difference in my reaction is that, when a woman didn't like what I was wearing and walked into my closet and pulled out a different shirt and pants and said, "Here, wear this," without asking permission, I didn't get angry. From my point of view, it was just a question of whether it was worth getting into a fight about it or not. Generally, not.

Keep in mind that a woman’s hair is highly personal. Is it more personal than a guy’s beard? Probably.

Maybe a woman’s hair is more associated with feminity than a guy’s beard? A man sees long hair and they may think it is hot. If I see a guy with a nice beard, I just think he has a nice beard.

Anyway, this lady didn’t ask me what my kids thought. Or my parents or sister. She went straight to husband. That’s why this gets a woman’s hackles up more than you might expect.

I mean, when was the last time anyone remarked on a man’ clothes with, “Does your wife like those pants?”

I treat my husband in the way you describe, Quirt. This is because he trusts my opinion and invariably asks for it. And I ask his opinion also. There’s no hand slapping.

But when I get dressed for the evening, I don’t seek or want his opinion. He can’t dress himself, so hows he supposed to know what I should wear? He genuinely does not know.

But as I said, it would be super weird for anyone to ask either of us if the other liked our outfit.

quote:

Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
Quirt, I’m not making a straw man argument because I’m not making an argument.

I’m telling you how some women feel about these issues. Read and participate if you’d like.

You're continuing to pound on a point I already I agreed with.

quote:

Originally posted by Cindysphinx:

I mean, when was the last time anyone remarked on a man’ clothes with, “Does your wife like those pants?”

You've never heard anyone say to a man, "Your wife let you out of the house dressed like that???"