Hi all, I wonder if anyone has any advice for me on a section that is giving my some trouble. Here's the music, the trouble spot is section N:



Note that there are 4 sharps, and the tempo is quarter note=97. (not blisteringly fast, but fast enough.)

Section N is what's giving me trouble, the right hand is up on the black keys (mostly) and has to jump back and forth. I don't usually have a black-key aversion, but with this section, I am having a heck of a time (other sections in the 4-sharp portion of the piece don't give me any problems). My fingers feel shaking and it feels to me like I'm afraid my fingers will slip of the keys, and since I am afraid, slip off they do!

I am currently practicing it slowly, and then faster, and then slow again. Does anyone have any other suggestions for how to practice this, because I am not making any progress. If I can get this bit down, then I should have the piece playable fairly soon. Any suggestions appreciated!

P.S I am playing the first note (lower) of each cluster with 2 (index finger). I have tried practicing where I play each cluster as block chords, but then my thumb leads the way, and I think that's why I'm not getting much out of the block chord approach, since index finger has to lead.

if that makes any sense.

leading with the 2 would be correct.

i would keep my thumb on the last note of the beat while i travelled my 5 and 2 to the next chord... kind of crawling like a spider.. you'll have to cross the the 5 and 2 over the thumb and release it, but to teach your hands how to find the note you can twist your hand, keeping your thumb intact as long as possible.. works the same way while you are stretch upwards. .. very slowly at first.. try to maintain constant contact from note to note.

52-3-1, 52-3-1, 52-3-1, 52-3-1, 52-3-1, 52-3-1,

Thank Apple, I think, because of the tempo, I have just been "jumping" or moving my hand all in a piece, all at once. I will try what you've suggested at slow tempos and see if that helps.

Well, I'm surprised that you find the jumps difficult. If you were to play as if for block chords, why don't you lead with 5? (Obviously a 5 under at beat 2.)

Wait, I'm getting confused.

Right hand, thumb is called 1, yes? Pinkie is 5, yes? Let's see what I'm missing, because I don't understand what you mean by leading with 5 (pinkie)

When I practiced with block chords, all fingers come down at once, to do that, I pick my whole hand up and slide it over. The thinking is that most of those clusters require the hand to be in the same position, so just sliding the hand back and forth would be most efficient. (If this is bad thinking, let me know!)

For the first jump, that means, if I'm practcing playing block chords, I'm moving my right hand to the left, so the thumb naturally leads. But the first finger that needs to touch a key is actually the index finger. So what I meant was, I didn't feel like I was getting any benefit out of practicing block chords, because when it came time to play it as written, my index finger had to lead, and I was slipping around.

Even going over to the right hasn't been very beneficial, playing the block chord, where you'd thing the pinkie would lead (maybe that's what you're talking about??) BEcause when I play it as a block chord, my thumb is so kind of.. there, that when I go back to needing to have the index finger play the first note of the cluster, my hand is just all wobbling and sloppy.

I don't know if I am making any sense. i thought maybe articulating it would help, but I'm not feeling very optimistic!!

Mainly what I wanted to say was that, normally for something like this, one way to practice it would be to play block chords, but when I go from playing block chords to playing as written, I don't feel like it's benefiting me very much.

Anyway, if anyone is still reading after that! let me know what you think.

P.S. Matt, it's not that I find the jumps difficult (after all, it's hardly any distance) it's that I feel like a tightrope walker on a wobbly rope because I have to land on the black keys, and when I get up to any reasonable tempo, I'm slipping all over the place, i.e. slipping off the keys.

So yeah, this isn't a jump issue, it's a black key issue. I think.

Are you one of those people who play at the very edge of the white keys?

What I mean by "leading" is feeling for the right place to land.

Nope, definitely don't play at the edge of the white keys. I think my "depth" depends on what I'm playing, but will have to pay attention when playing someting I'm used to playing.

As I mentioned, I usually don't have a black key aversion, so I don't get why I'm having so much trouble with this.

In terms of leading though, I am definitely "thumb oriented," so for example, let's say I have a real jump in the right hand (a few octaves up or something) where thumb and pinkie or thumb and 3 or 4, or whatever combo, maybe a three-fingered landing, have to land. The fingers to the right edge of the right hand are the highest up, but if I need to "spot" or image (that's a verb here) where my hand is going to land, my thumb is the basis, it's like if I can get my thumb in the right place, the rest of my hand is there.

Maybe that's my problem here, maybe I should be leading either with index or pinkie, but maybe that doesn't come naturally to me. Hmmm.

Yeah, I was just going to say this looks like a classic case where you just move your 5-finger group between locations. But since not using your thumb to play the first notes confuses you, try focusing on 2-5 as the group (the interval of the fourth), with the thumb in correct position but "along for the ride."

This is not a case where anyone would try to cross the whole hand over the thumb to create legato. It's the kind of place where you use pedal to make it smooth.

I don't think of any finger as "leading," just the 5-finger (or 4-finger) position "shifting." I would practice aiming the finger group to the new position over and over, slowly if necessary.

And here's one off-the-wall thought: Maybe your black keys are too slippery. Normally they are finished to be more grippy than the whites, but some piano makers may have a different idea, and that's why you're slipping.

Is this that Croatian Rhapsody piece? It looks familiar.

When I play on black keys, I have to remember not to curve my fingers too much. Try playing those notes with almost flat fingers.

Use your thumb to kind of spring to the next group, and I would practice the jump between each group so that you play, say, beat 1, and then jump and land on the beginning of beat 2 without going on.

quote:

But since not using your thumb to play the first notes confuses you,

Ouch, my pride! No, it's not that it's confusing, it's that I use the thumb for the second note, so I want to keep it free by using the index finger for the first note.

Reading your post RP, I think I need to pay attention and see just which fingers are actually slipping, because I just have this overall impression of being wobbly, but it may be that there's a specific culprit, and if I can find it, that will make a big different.

Re slippery keys, never thought of that!! I wish I had my old piano that I sold before leaving Japan. Now all I have at home is a digital, and I bet it is slippery (and too new). I'll have to see how it goes at the lesson next time, and see if those keys feel any different.

PA, yep, Croatian Rhapsody. So much fun to play (except for the slippery part).

Thanks for the point about not curving fingers too much, I don't know how I'm holding my hand, but will pay closer attention next practice session.

This thread is very helpful everyone, thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by ShiroKuro:

quote:

But since not using your thumb to play the first notes confuses you,

Ouch, my pride! No, it's not that it's confusing, it's that I use the thumb for the second note, so I want to keep it free by using the index finger for the first note.

Sorry, SK. I'm probably not at my best tonight, as I've just come down with a cold, and my poor brain just isn't getting the details right.

That's alright RP, thanks for helping in spite of being under the weather. Hope you feel better quickly!!

I thought it was Croatian Rhapsody, too.

The problem I have (tested with my famous "air piano" technique ) is the movement from the D# to the E. And I'm a weirdo so I'm not sure if my methods would work for anyone else. (I'm not even sure if they work for me!)

I'm thinking that I'd try (5-1)-3-2 and then sort of pivot off of 2 to get to the next one. In other words, use 2 as a bit of an anchor to help you locate the next set of chords. Repeat as necessary.

I find it easier to get to the initial chord with 5-1 than try to sort of poke my way there with, say, 5-2--and then the other two notes are right there under your fingers.

A bit unorthodox, but it might be worth a shot.