After rehearsal today, I stopped in at Faust Harrison Pianos to discuss my hammer situation. (Hammers over-lacquered 9 years ago; must be replaced.) Michael Harrison wasn't there, but I spoke with another person on staff and, without my asking, got another endorsement for Ronsen Wurzenfelts for my specific piano. One of their techs will be getting back to me. This fellow also likes Renners, with new Steinway in third place.

This supports statements I've been reading on PW and here (by Rick CG) about how nice the Ronsens are in vintage instruments.

Bruce Clark of Mason & Hamlin uses Renners, and rebuilder Chris Robinson also favors them.

Marc Wienert, however, likes Steinways in these pianos, and he's pretty smart, so...

The saga continues.

Joe, Dan put Renner blues on his CC they sound great. That's whats on my piano too.

I thought Dan had Abels in his CC, but he experiments with his piano a lot, so by now they could very well be Renners.

I must have a tin ear, because I find the differences between all these hammers rather minuscule. Except I know harsh and nasty, as in my own over-hard ones. You don't often have the chance to compare them side-by-side in different instruments.

Keith Kerman had a new CC94 set up with Ronsens, in Maryland. I happened to be down there for a concert and went to try it. The hammers had been lacquered somewhat to deliver a brighter sound for a piano competition. Again, they sounded fine but to me, very similar to others.

I wish there were an easy way to educate myself on the various characters of these hammers. There must be real differences, because people vehemently favor one over another.

Isn't Beacon Chris in the business? I'd welcome his opinion too.

Hey Joe....

Practice instrument, right? I'd go for stable. Many times, the suggestions you will get will be based on performance requirements, which may get 'light' voicing at each performance. (I've been to plenty of Steinway seminars that teach that line)

The Ronson wurzens have been getting a lot of good results in places that may be more applied to your situation - college studios. As a 'working instrument', professionals tend to have a different relationship - and therefore needs from the home piano. Especially since you mentioned being tolerant of different tonal ranges.

I could go digging in the PTG college and university tech archives if you'd like to contact the college techs directly for recommendations.

Wurzens seem to have the quality of power, with tonal range that stands up to heavy playing.... Could be a good match for you!

I would talk with Marc again and ask for specific reasons why he chooses what he does.

I thought he was very good at explaining things, would be local to work on your piano, and has such a very good ear.

I'd also ask Keith K for his opinions of why, maybe through PW and with knowledge that he would not be doing the work.

BTW, for listening to differences, right now I am listening to comparisons of the Steingraeber 272, prepped by Pianocraft, the Phoenix on at Hurstwood, and the 272 as it comes from the factory. By far, I prefer the Pianocraft 272. It was prepped for recording so was a little bit bright on the treble side, but the bass is clean. Still all the attributes that I love about the Steingraebers, but they really juiced it up to a great piano. My all time favorite piano! What tone and sustain. I wept while playing it.

If you are ever down there again, and would like to play it, I can give you an introduction to the owner.

joe,
by and large, techs recommend what THEY have had the best results with, and also what they have the most experience with.

marc knows how to create the most incredibly beautiful sound possible out of ny steinway hammers, so that is what he prefers. (or he treats hard hammers to soften them, so he can do what he knows how to do on steinway hammers).

the techs i have interviewed who use ronsen wurzen felts on their rebuilds all say the same thing--they need minimal voicing, and they are very stable. they also give a rich, warm tone that is more of an old style.

if you don't want harshness, brilliance, but a warmer, rounder tone, from what i have been told by many great techs, you want the wurzenfelts.

having said that, why not have whoever does this work bring with them one of each: ny steinway, renner blue, wurzenfelt, etc.

you can swap them out of just one note and hear which sound will please you most.

btw, depending on the string scaling design of your CC, the wurzen felts may NOT be optimal.

perhaps try playing a CC with wurzenfelts in it.

in the end, use the hammers the tech you are using gets the best results from.

alternately, use the tech who prefers to use the kind of hammers you want!

Joe, You should really talk to Dan about this. Probably no one else has experimented as much with a CC.

Thanks for all the ideas!

I'm such a weenie...researching everything to the Nth degree before making a decision (see my piano purchase history!)

If by "stable," Ron, you mean: doesn't change much; voicings will last a good while, consistent response over time...yes, those attributes sound attractive to me.

Lilylady, I think Marc learned about and tweaked so many S&S hammersets in his lifetime that he knows them inside out, and no wonder that he favors them...he can do more with them than probably anyone can. But it's certainly worth carrying on the conversation with him, and I will...he wants me to hear a certain recording-studio piano, to hear his sound ideal. Making an appointment is the hard part! I'm a bit tongue-tied around him, because he's used to dealing with pianists who are very specific in their demands, and I hardly know what to listen for. Arrgh!

Pique', good thoughts, thanks. I knew about techs favoring the particular hammers they're experienced with. I hadn't thought to ask about switching individual hammers experimentally on my instrument, cool! As far as Wurzens go, from my research so far, not very many NYC techs know them well. Marc doesn't, my regular guy doesn't. But I sure haven't called everyone in the book. So it's all up in the air.

I like the "historical" notion that they're more appropriate to the vintage and make of my piano. I also recall hearing a Steinway at Faust, years ago, that they'd voiced "the old-fashioned way" to be mellow and singing. It wasn't moving because buyers weren't familiar with that sound!

LJC, I'll have to give Dan a call. Thanks!

They did my Ibach with Abels and they are so wonderful. A different sound than the Abels on my Grotrian though (more felty) really delightful. I wonder if there are different Abel hammers like the Renner Red/Blue (hey is that related to conservative/liberal?)

The idea with Renner and other German types is that you start out hard and soften until you like the sound. The problem with the Steinway philosophy (US) is that you start with a marsh mellow and try to harden but this process is not well controllable - you then have to soften by brutal means (punch the hammer in the face). The softening process you do on German hammers is by needling little by little until you get it where you want to. From an engineering standpoint - a more tractable method.

quote:

As far as Wurzens go, from my research so far, not very many NYC techs know them well. Marc doesn't, my regular guy doesn't. But I sure haven't called everyone in the book. So it's all up in the air.

that is now changing. i just talked to marc (actually several times over the past week). he had an amazing several days up in toronto with an international crew of voicers and hammer makers and designers, and he may have something new to say about this now.

quote:

I wonder if there are different Abel hammers like the Renner Red/Blue (hey is that related to conservative/liberal?)

there is no one abel hammer (or renner hammer, for that matter). each piano manufacturer has them made to their own specs. so what you have are ibach abels that are designed specifically for that make of piano. i'm sure they are different from the grotrian abels.

quote:

I like the "historical" notion that they're more appropriate to the vintage and make of my piano. I also recall hearing a Steinway at Faust, years ago, that they'd voiced "the old-fashioned way" to be mellow and singing. It wasn't moving because buyers weren't familiar with that sound!

that was most likely marc's work.

go play the centennial in the recording studio. it's a beautiful piano. you can hear it on the flash page of my website.