I've been searching through old topics at PW's AB and PC forums, but I'm getting a little lost. I know this topic has been covered over and over, but can we do again, just one more time? Pretty please.

I worked through the scales in Hanon several years ago, but it's probably been at least 3 years (probably more like 5) since I've worked on scales. My teacher has suggested I really need to do them, and I'm kind in a place where I'm ready to do a little more "piano-studying" so I'm trying to figure out the best approach.

Do they need to be memorized? Why or why not?

Hanon has each major scale grouped with its minor, so I was thinking I'd do those as a set. But I have seen people say that you should just start with all the major scales, then go back and do the minors with their majors after you've gone through all the majors. Any opinions on this?

Also, I don't think Hanon's order is in the circle of 5ths order. Not that I would know, because as soon as I read about the circle of 5ths, I forgot it completely. Is it ok to just do them in the order that Hanon has them, or do you recommend a different order?

While we're at it, how does one remember the circle of 5ths? I never put that to use in my daily practice, so it might as well be trivia for all the more its stayed in my head.

Do you think Hanon's fingerings are acceptable? If you don't recommend using Hanon for scales, what would you recommend and why?

Also, IIRC Hanon's scales are in 4 octaves, but sometimes I hear people talking about doing them in two. Which is better?

And really, just how fast do I need to get them before I move on? Hanon's 120 is always out of my reach.

Finally, do you do scales regularly? How much time do you spend on them? What benefits have you gotten from the practice of scales?

Teachum are you still doing the Russian Technical Regime? Do you recommend it? Is it mind-bogglingly difficult?

Thanks for your patience!

Edited to add this really important question:
How can/should I practice scales so that I'm learning something about what I'm playing? When I practiced scales in the past, I just played them and it seemed like after I moved on to a new set, the old set was gone leaving nothing in its place. But it seems to me that that's really missing the most important thing. So, what is the most important thing?

I hate scales. And my playing, dexterity, fast passage stumbles always showed it.

But I do think they are great warm ups. And once in a while when my fingers feel the need, I'll run through the major ones in chromatic order, HT, up and down.

What is the need for playing all major and minor scales? It is good to know what the notes are in each and relate to that when you come upon a piece in a certain key, but if playing them is for dexterity, doesn't 12 just about do it?

I probably need a slap on the wrist!!!

LL

They need to be memorized for 2 reasons:

1) One of the main reasons for practicing scales is learning the key signatures, and what they feel like.

2) You want to be able to see what your hands are doing when you play scales.

There are lots of ways to practice scales.
I would ask your teacher what approach she recommends, but if you haven't practiced scales in a while you might do the following:
- Pick a scale
- Set the metronome fairly slow 80 bpm for example.
- Do one octave up and down in quarter notes, two octaves up and down in 8th notes, 3 octaves in triplets, and four octaves in 16ths.
- Make sure the slower scales - quarters and eighths - are solidly articulated, and the faster octaves are even and with the metronome.

Use that tempo as a ground, and as you get comfortable move up in tempo.

Take a week or so and do the sharp scales and C, then move to the black key scales, and then the flat scales.

I don't know what the Hanon fingerings are, but the sharp scales are usually 12312341 for the right hand, and 54321321 for the left. The black key scales are 123 (rh), and 321 (lh) on the black kets, and one on the white keys.

Bb is 2(or 3)1231234 (rh) and 32143213 (lh)
Eb is 2(or 3)1234123 (rh) and 32143213 (lh)
ab is 34 (or 23)123123 (rh) and 32143213

F is 12341231 (rh), and 54321321 (lh)

You can work in the minor scales at any point too.

scaling..

i love scales and need to spend more time on them. i haven't approached them systematically but enjoy spending time on one particular key (with the associated chords and arpeggios)....

playing them in 4/4 and 3/4 time..

two or three octaves apart..

with the metronome clicking on beats 2 and 4 rather than 1 and 3,

in one key played in 3rds and octave apart,

in two keys, C and E major for instance played in 3rds.

i always practice arpeggios in 3rds and 5ths (great for improvizing)

i could spend hours travelling up and down the keyboard but rarely have the time to indulge.

Years ago I warmed up every day by playing all the major and minor scales with both hands 4 octaves up and four down then in 10ths and in 6ths. I play them every once and awhile now so as not to forget. I think it helps technique and helps sight reading. There is no key that i am uncomfortable with. Sometimes I play the scale that a new piece is in before sight reading just to get good reference.

quote:

Originally posted by LJC:
I play them every once and awhile now so as not to forget. I think it helps technique and helps sight reading. There is no key that i am uncomfortable with. Sometimes I play the scale that a new piece is in before sight reading just to get good reference.

I think those suggestions are a very good reason to play scales.

Phlebas, nice post.

I always taught the black key scales before others. They feel comfortable to our hands.

LL

6ths?

I only returned to the piano last autumn after a thirty years absence (eek!) I have been playing my scales as a revision technique and it's surprising how much the old brain retains from so long ago. I imagine this is because I learned them so young. But one thing I cannot do is play them with a metronome. Exercises, yes. Scales, impossible.

Thanks for the replies everyone. So, scales are like eating right and exercising? We all know we need to do it, but we don't always manage to get to it?

Phlebas, thanks for the very detailed post!

Yesterday I wasn't practicing with a metronome, but I think I will.

You said:

quote:

Take a week or so and do the sharp scales and C, then move to the black key scales, and then the flat scales.

What do you mean here? Are the sharp and flat scales things like F# scale, Bb scale? And then the black key scales would be what, things like D major scake (i.e. it has some black keys)?

From what I looked at yesterday, I think the Hanon scale fingerings are the same as what you wrote.

I think it feels overwhelming to start back at doing scales because there are so many of them, and so many different approaches. Yesterday I just did the C major scale, and I have my next lesson on Wed, so I think I'll just work on C until my lesson and then hopefully we can do some planning.

So, what am I trying to learn by practicing scales? Obviously I want to move my fingers, but what should I be retaining? The knowledge of the sharps/flats for each key I work through? Should I be memorizing the relative minor of each major key? Is there anything else that I want to be aware of while I practice?

One more question, why is it better to warm up with scales than with a piece? (Let's say the piece is not especially fast or challenging, so that it would allow a gradual warm up as opposed to being overly taxing)

Sorry, what I mean by sharp scales is G, D, A, and E - throw in C because the fingering is the same.
Black key scales are B (or Cb, Db (or c#), Gb.
The flat scales are Bb, Eb, Ab,
Then there's F, which has a different fingering for the lh.

What you learn when practicing scales at the beginning is the fingerings, key signatures, and what they feel like. however, the main thing a lot of people work on is in practicing scales is listening, evenness, articulation, etc.

Thanks for that explanation.

I really want to make sure I'm "mindful" while I'm practicing. And, I don't want to spend forever on scales, so I want the time I spend to be worth something!

scales for me are mindless pleasure.. i love feeling my hands acquire the skill. granted i do concentrate on technique tone etc.

Back in the day when I was learning (and dinosaurs roamed the earth) I was taught to play four octave scales. For the first two octaves the hands moved in parallel. Then the right hand continued for two more octaves up while the left went back down. Thus the hands were moving in opposite directions toward the ends of the piano. Then the right hand went back down two octaves while the left went back up two octaves. Finally, both hands went in parallel back to the start position. It's a good exercise, actually.

quote:

Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
Back in the day when I was learning (and dinosaurs roamed the earth) I was taught to play four octave scales. For the first two octaves the hands moved in parallel. Then the right hand continued for two more octaves up while the left went back down. Thus the hands were moving in opposite directions toward the ends of the piano. Then the right hand went back down two octaves while the left went back up two octaves. Finally, both hands went in parallel back to the start position. It's a good exercise, actually.

The pattern you described, Pianodad, is the pattern in the Russian Technical Regimen - Alexander Peskanov, published by Willis Music Company. I bought the books at the suggestion of my sis, Adagiolady about a year ago. Granted, I do not do them religiously, but I feel they have helped me in many ways. This regimen works backwards around the circle of fifths and modulates from major to minor each time. When I started with C major I about tore my hair out. It took me like two weeks to do it. I just could not do all that contrary, parallel, octaves apart stuff. Finally it clicked and every key has been progressively easier. I find it helps me with my playing of regular pieces because I can play scales and arpeggios more smoothly and once I know something is just a scale, no problem. I am far from perfect, but I am much better than I was. I NEVER did scales and no one made me until I made myself. I'm very glad I finally did.

i work on one key at a time - usually for around 45 minutes - start with a metronome at 60bpm with one note p/b over 2 octaves then 2 notes, triplets over 3 octaves and 4's over 4 octaves
then i improvise over a 2/5/1 chord progession in the same key going thru the scale including using thirds, sixths and sometimes fourths of the scale
this way you get to know your scales backwards -helps a lot with sightreading as well!