quote:

Originally posted by Kris:
PS a lot of your posts seem to regard very specific technical issues -
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i'm assuming?
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Don't make assumptions, it's better for all of us that way. I've been posting on this board for over 2 years now (and more than 2000 posts, yikes!) So you're probably not in a good position to make assessments regarding what "a lot of my posts" are about.

Having said that... Welcome to the Well-Tempered Forum Kris. Most of the people here are pretty well-tempered (although I myself am not especially thick-skinned today.)

quote:

Originally posted by Kris:
Phlebas;

With all due respect to you, i'm sure Shiro is a good player.

I'm giving advice i was given by my tutors - and i have had some very notable tutors - some you would know if i were to mention them to you.

I'm giving info - not offending anyone. Musicians need a thick skin - and don't worry - i wouldn't criticize anyone in any way that i would not like to be spoken to myself.

PS i have been a professional pianist since i was 15 - i understand the relevance and relationship between fingering and harmony pretty well.

I'm giving info and advice for free - you should appreciate this. The lessons i am giving took me a long time to learn (and i got a piano lesson every day since age 4) - i'm trying to point people in the right direction, and save them from wasting time.

If this approach seems direct, then so be it. Being a professional musician requires a non-emotive approach to the subject. Amateurs discuss the 'art' - the pros just go out there and get on with the job.

So if my advice is not welcome, i'll not pass any on.

Kris,

It's great that you had some notable teachers, have been a professional since 15, are giving free advice, etc.
That doesn't have much to do with the point of my post that you're making an assumption about what someone posts about here. You said "stop obsessing about fingering." She wasn't. She asked a couple questions about it, that's all.

Anyway, it's good to have you here, and your advice is appreciated. I've had some pretty direct teachers in the past, so feel free to lay it on me when I ask anything.

By the way, the link to your website used to be at the bottom of your posts I think, but it seems to be gone now.

Cheers.

When i say 'stop obsessing about fingering', i mean don't worry about it so much. Problems of fingering shouldn't be a worry if playing high-end pieces (chopin ballades, etc.). If fingering is even in the equation, then, in my opinion, the musician is not ready for the music.

Of course, fingering still has to be studied, but logical fingering is obvious (and not even an issue) if playing a piece that is within your ability, or at least on the visible horizon!

Boy, I'm not sure I agree that if fingering is in the equation, the musician isn't ready for the music.

I'm not talking about writing fingering in for every note, but there are definitely passages in even advanced pieces where there are options for which fingers you choose to use. Paying attention and picking the best one for your hand up front can pay big dividends. Other times there are several equally decent ways to approach a passage, and it pays to pick one and stick with it.

Sorry for the home truths...

The inadequate pianist will struggle to find one fingering that works.

The adequate pianist will struggle to limit theirselves to only one fingering.

I have seen someone play the 1st mvt of prokofieff's 1st concerto with over 8 different fingering possibilities, all played convincingly.

Look, it is simple, folks!! If you can't visualise the fingering (or at least see a few possibilities, then work out at the piano which is the best), the piece is too difficult - it is as simple as that!! Look at a grade 1 piece - you will be able to visualise the fingering without being at the piano. A good pianist will be able to do this with even the most difficult of pieces. One of my tutors learned the scriabin preludes before even playing them at the piano.

If the music can't be visualised in the mind, it will never be 'in' the fingers (or the fingers will always struggle with the music).

Try it, and you will see what i mean.

But i'm sure that whoever disagrees with this will realise for theirselves soon enough that it is the truth. I'm trying to save you all lots of time here!! Trust me, i tried the way that you mention (for a few years)- it leads nowhere.

Nina - you wrote (with regards to fingering)'it pays to pick one and stick with it' - maybe when a novice, but i'd disagree completely- i used to think this way also, but my tutors brought me round to seeing it in the way i think now (yes, a difficult lesson! I'd go in with, for example, chopin's Bbm prelude learned from heart, and performed smoothly, then i'd be given the score again, with new fingering wrote in - and yes, this is very difficult - to 'unlearn' - but it becomes easier with time and practise - then most difficulties vanish) - When the muscles 'learn' a passage, the movement no longer pays any benefit to the hand, as the muscles have adapted to that specific movement.

As is said, 'the best exercise is the one we don't yet know'.

The best way is to learn a piece with one fingering, then learn it again with another fingering, etc. etc. Only by doing this will the hand truly learn to become adaptable (and our minds also). The more adaptable the hand is, the quicker it will adapt to a new piece, and so forth. The process becomes self-regulating.

But i can see my advice is not welcome here.

Maybe the truth is the most difficult pill to swallow? Perhaps i'm saying what we, as pianists, all know, yet don't like to hear, as it pinpoints our weaknesses?

I'll leave you all to it - good luck on the path you choose to walk!!

There is one thing that I would like to leave with you tonight, Kris, as you help us out with your pianist words of wisdom...

Many of us are not destined to be concert pianists!

But are learning to play for the enjoyment and quest of the new piece.

Each at our own level.

Personally, I am enjoying ingesting. I can see that you have a lot to share. I will listen and learn, but will also need time to digest.

A LESSON A DAY did I hear? OMG!

Ignoring the things about Kris's style of posting that I find less than appropriate and somewhat off the mark, I will make one comment about fingering that I thought of from reading his interesting comments on fingering.

In my own playing, it used to be the case that changing the fingering in a piece I had played for even a limited amount of time was close to impossible for me. I am not sure exactly when the change happened, but now changing finger is not really a big issue. I'm sure partly that's because I now have specific things I do when I change the fingering (like isolating the section with the changed fingering and drilling the new fingering into my head.) But I think it's also because I am deliberate in my fingering in general, and make conscious decisions, so that when I change the fingering, it's just a part of that consciousness and isn't such a struggle.

Thanks for comments!

Yip a lesson a day!!

We all play for the enjoyment and quest of a new piece.

But too many pianists try to play music they aren't technically ready for (e.g. chopin etudes, bach's 48, etc) - to play such music requires the discipline and approach of a concert pianist. Otherwise the pieces should just be left alone.

There is nothing worse than hearing the opening bars of grieg's concerto being murdered by yet another pianist, even if they are enjoying it - they are just damaging their technique, and their musicality.

I think of it like this - when we actually learn to read, we learn new books gradually, and gradually increase our vocabulary. We don't jump from winnie the pooh to rene descartes - so why do the same with piano? Why do we think that because we can play a C major arpeggio pretty well, we can learn chopin's 1st etude?!

I know - i was once there myself!

Hope this outlook helps.

PS a lesson a day was great - i didn't have time to allow bad habits to appear - i could never be more indulgent than my teacher would allow.

But, we don't all have the time to devote to being concert pianists, Kris. Take for example my 21 year old son. He studied with a fine teacher - a student of Cortot. He continuously challenged himself with pieces that were beyond him. She not only indulged him, but encouraged him, and he soared. I'm sure you could find much to criticize in his playing. He's not and doesn't aspire to be a concert pianist. But, he can wow an audience of music lovers.

He would never have been motivated if he had been forced to practice level one pieces. I'm sure he would have simply quit. Everyone is different - and so are our aspirations.

Agreed - but as i have said before - as long as the piece is on the visible horizon. If it is out of sight, then it is a waste of time, and technique.

We all need to play pieces that are slightly beyond us, to push forward a little. But as long as it is not too much pushing forward. In my experience, this causes peope to quit more than playing an easier piece does.

When it comes to competitions, it is usually the pianists who have a solid grounding in the basics (i mean at least ten years or so of playing low-level pieces, even whilst learning more challenging music) that succeed. The lack of a decent foundation can be heard instantly in those who push too soon, or push without an adequate technical grounding.

Kris, you said "in my experience," what is your experience? Do you teach? What kind of students?

I run a music school in Paris.

And i also mean in my experience of being taught.

i'm one of the idiots who taught myself to play by learning the prelude/fugues and the etudes... i must say, i had the discipline of a serious pianist. but really wish i had gone to school and studied properly.

i'm sure glad i've a teacher now and a disciplined structure of sorts.

- apple, who'd walk a trillion miles to be insulted by the likes of Martha

What kind of students do you have? Since you said you spend your time between France and the UK (IIRC), does that mean you employ teachers at the school as well?

I have a website where potential students can contact me. I usually invite them to the school to play. If they show potential, then i'll take them on. I only take on a few students at a time (as it is a very small school - it is actually my apartment over there that i have converted).

I have someone else working for me when i'm over here, but i spend half the week in each country.

I like the pupils to get as many lessons as possible in the week - at least 3.

My students range, from 3 year olds to older students who simply enjoy playing piano for the sake of playing piano. Both are fine, but if someone wants to learn piano seriously, the whole approach is different, and far more disciplined.

It has to be - the piano is perhaps the most difficult instrument in the world to play well, yet one of the easiest instruments in the world to play badly.